EZY LGW-AMS pushed back onto grass
To get to this assumption you are assuming:
1. Captain knew they were in grass, didn't care and intended to power out. There is no such evidence of this.
2. The ground crew/headset man actually admitted to the Captain he'd pushed him into the grass and therefore do not request taxi, don't move.
There is no such evidence of this.
3. In the absence of the above happening, how is Captain to know he's in the grass without an admission from ground crew or other external reference (ATC, other aircraft, passengers in cabin). Seems the ground crew did the push, then did nothing when it went wrong and just pi$$ed off as if nothing had happened!
4. It seems that there is ATC evidence/recording of another EZY company reporting over the R/T to the Captain in question something along the lines of 'are you aware you're in the grass'.
In light of this evidence, the Captain has obviously NOT been told by anyone else with external reference that the aircraft was in fact in the grass.
1. Captain knew they were in grass, didn't care and intended to power out. There is no such evidence of this.
2. The ground crew/headset man actually admitted to the Captain he'd pushed him into the grass and therefore do not request taxi, don't move.
There is no such evidence of this.
3. In the absence of the above happening, how is Captain to know he's in the grass without an admission from ground crew or other external reference (ATC, other aircraft, passengers in cabin). Seems the ground crew did the push, then did nothing when it went wrong and just pi$$ed off as if nothing had happened!
4. It seems that there is ATC evidence/recording of another EZY company reporting over the R/T to the Captain in question something along the lines of 'are you aware you're in the grass'.
In light of this evidence, the Captain has obviously NOT been told by anyone else with external reference that the aircraft was in fact in the grass.
In the captain's defence, had it been Stand 554 then we wouldn't be having this debate. Likewise, if the flight had been op by an A319, we probably wouldn't either.
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In the mid nineties whilst working out of Escravos, Nigeria I recall that an F27 left the paved area with the port gear whilst turning off the runway. The wheel bogged down in the very wet earth. The pilots tried to power the aircraft out and seriously damaged an engine. The aircraft was later towed out and was stuck at Escravos for weeks before a replacement engine was sourced and fitted.
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This happened to me when I was CC at Aberdeen on a 1-11 in the early 80's. We were empty and positioning the a/c home. It had snowed lightly and we pushed back too far into the grass. The skipper was determined to get home as he was going out to a dinner party so he just powered us out of there. The a/c was shaking like a bugger at near full power but we popped out of the mud and he slammed the brakes on as we hit the tarmac. We then taxied out and took off
I don't recall anybody saying the case was closed.
And I have no idea what your postage stamp-sized photo is intended to prove, other than that not all EZY pushbacks end up on the grass?
And I have no idea what your postage stamp-sized photo is intended to prove, other than that not all EZY pushbacks end up on the grass?
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How about you count the number of concrete slabs between the nose-gear and the mainwheels. And then tell me again that the main wheels would be in the grass.
Not very correct to delete posts because you don't understand them Dave!
Not very correct to delete posts because you don't understand them Dave!
Some of the macho boys wouldn't like me.
Once left hotac and checked in for flight. Due breakdown in ops coms, flight was delayed with indeterminate ETD.
We returned to hotel where DFC 'phoned to say just rest at hotel, forget you came on duty and we'll call you. Skip asked 'All OK with that?'
Bas: 'No, I'm not. We're on duty. There is evidence that we came on duty and, if we have a completely unrelated incident, the AAIB will take us apart!'
Skip: 'Well, you'd better speak to the DFC!'
I did and we commenced another rest period.
Nothing was ever said.
I agree that there is a temptation to attempt to power out. It is one which should be resisted.
Once left hotac and checked in for flight. Due breakdown in ops coms, flight was delayed with indeterminate ETD.
We returned to hotel where DFC 'phoned to say just rest at hotel, forget you came on duty and we'll call you. Skip asked 'All OK with that?'
Bas: 'No, I'm not. We're on duty. There is evidence that we came on duty and, if we have a completely unrelated incident, the AAIB will take us apart!'
Skip: 'Well, you'd better speak to the DFC!'
I did and we commenced another rest period.
Nothing was ever said.
I agree that there is a temptation to attempt to power out. It is one which should be resisted.
But if you're familiar with those new-fangled metre thingys, the relevant dimensions are:
Twy Q centreline to edge of paved surface: 14.5 m (approx)
Pilot's bum to MLG axles: 15.5 m (approx)
And then tell me again that the main wheels would be in the grass.
Not very correct to delete posts because you don't understand them Dave!
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Now I didn't see the incident and I suspect very few if any of the previous posters on this thread did either but give this some thought as it does not appear to have been mentioned yet.
The a/c was pushed back too far resulting in the main gear (one or both I don't know) ended up leaving the concrete and sitting on the frozen ground. Is the grass lower than the concrete? Is it just because of the "lip" that the tug was unable to extract the a/c from the frozen ground?
Assuming that this may have been the case, the tug would have been spinning its wheels on the concrete because of a lack of traction. One way to assist this would be to apply a little power to both a/c engines (to keep things aligned) and assist the tug. Knowing this may be a bit dangerous, the captain may have decided to get the tug out of the way before trying it.
Many years ago, a tug was struggling to get traction to drag a DC-10 into the hangar at Gatwick so the hangar manager who was trained to taxi, jumped into the left seat, started #2 and used a/c power to drive it into the hangar. Nobody died and sometimes, careful use of the available tools (engines) is all that is needed.
The a/c was pushed back too far resulting in the main gear (one or both I don't know) ended up leaving the concrete and sitting on the frozen ground. Is the grass lower than the concrete? Is it just because of the "lip" that the tug was unable to extract the a/c from the frozen ground?
Assuming that this may have been the case, the tug would have been spinning its wheels on the concrete because of a lack of traction. One way to assist this would be to apply a little power to both a/c engines (to keep things aligned) and assist the tug. Knowing this may be a bit dangerous, the captain may have decided to get the tug out of the way before trying it.
Many years ago, a tug was struggling to get traction to drag a DC-10 into the hangar at Gatwick so the hangar manager who was trained to taxi, jumped into the left seat, started #2 and used a/c power to drive it into the hangar. Nobody died and sometimes, careful use of the available tools (engines) is all that is needed.
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Don't know where you get that information from Dave, as the pilots seats move forward and backward as well.
But the distance between MLG and nosewheel on a 320 is 12,64 meters. As such as long as the nosegear hasn't passed the taxiline you won't be on the grass. Which is visible from the stamp size photo as well.
As such the ground handlers must be pretty thick to push an aircraft with its nosewheel past the taxiline. I can only conclude that it has become a sport in LGW to do this.
But the distance between MLG and nosewheel on a 320 is 12,64 meters. As such as long as the nosegear hasn't passed the taxiline you won't be on the grass. Which is visible from the stamp size photo as well.
As such the ground handlers must be pretty thick to push an aircraft with its nosewheel past the taxiline. I can only conclude that it has become a sport in LGW to do this.
the pilots seats move forward and backward as well
Fokker1000 suggests that:
If this were the case, a tug would have been able to pull it forward as if it was on tarmac.
As this whole thread is about a tug that COULDN'T pull it forward, obviously the ground wasn't "...pretty much as hard as tarmac..." I'd suggest.
Just saying.
The ground was well frozen. That makes it pretty much as hard as tarmac i'd suggest.
As this whole thread is about a tug that COULDN'T pull it forward, obviously the ground wasn't "...pretty much as hard as tarmac..." I'd suggest.
Just saying.
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so, in the end, how was it got off the grass?
flyingtincan asked the question. No reply: now I add my support to him. Forget the history of did it or did it not? Forget what the capt. could have should have done, or not. What did happen to release this a/c from it's misery? Then we can learn something should it ever happen to one of us. Equally, how did the tug driver allow this to happen or were there mitigating circumstances?
flyingtincan asked the question. No reply: now I add my support to him. Forget the history of did it or did it not? Forget what the capt. could have should have done, or not. What did happen to release this a/c from it's misery? Then we can learn something should it ever happen to one of us. Equally, how did the tug driver allow this to happen or were there mitigating circumstances?
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Agreed with Rat 5 - how did they get it out if a tug couldn't get it out in the first place? Lugs on the mainwheels have been mentioned so I assume someone got a couple of JCB's and some rope?
Also, on the whole who did what - from my understanding it is fairly common to call for start and taxi as you're being pushed back (ie. before you've been pushed onto the grass) and even then, the crew are going to be too busy looking forward to be concentrating on exactly how many cm they've been pushed back (no reversing cameras on an A320) unless there was a bump as they went over the edge I guess.
Either way, as it is illegal to publish (publically re-broadcast) ATC recordings in the UK it is very unlikely anyone external would be recording the RT (liveATC.net etc.) and thus we'll never know the exact series of events.
Also, on the whole who did what - from my understanding it is fairly common to call for start and taxi as you're being pushed back (ie. before you've been pushed onto the grass) and even then, the crew are going to be too busy looking forward to be concentrating on exactly how many cm they've been pushed back (no reversing cameras on an A320) unless there was a bump as they went over the edge I guess.
Either way, as it is illegal to publish (publically re-broadcast) ATC recordings in the UK it is very unlikely anyone external would be recording the RT (liveATC.net etc.) and thus we'll never know the exact series of events.
Or a combination of the two.
Either way, I'd be as interested as everyone else to know how the A320 was finally extricated. My money would be on being pulled by the MLGs.
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The point is that the pilots position in the flightdeck is extremely unreliable with regard to wheel position Dave! You can only decide this stuff based on external information. So good luck with positioning your bum on an unknown airfield from an unknown stand!
Aproximate distances matter F all, when it comes to this. Its either on the grass OR it isn't and most likely you won't know from the flightdeck.
Aproximate distances matter F all, when it comes to this. Its either on the grass OR it isn't and most likely you won't know from the flightdeck.
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