Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
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Thr LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules.
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The source quoted is the Colombian CAA.
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So you're saying that the ill-fated flight was a figment of our collective imagination
Hmm, I wonder which one is more likely??
Does that mean that over here we have departed from the planet without anyone noticing, or that we've torn up the rule book ?
Doh.
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Otoh, that's a big IF.
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Here's a 2012 post from an FR24 admin that mentions an 'old transponder' with a 'calculated position' instead of GPS in the RJ100:
There can be several issues behind incorrect positions.
* Map calibration error
* Transponder error (sending wrong or random data)
* Receiver error (some kind of error in receiving so numbers get incorrect)
* Database error (some kind of mix up in database)
* Old transponder (some aircraft like RJ100 don't have GPS position but calculated position. It works OK on take off from Gothenburg, but once they reach Stockholm they land up to 30 km off from Bromma airport).
* Map calibration error
* Transponder error (sending wrong or random data)
* Receiver error (some kind of error in receiving so numbers get incorrect)
* Database error (some kind of mix up in database)
* Old transponder (some aircraft like RJ100 don't have GPS position but calculated position. It works OK on take off from Gothenburg, but once they reach Stockholm they land up to 30 km off from Bromma airport).
Perhaps coincidental but as many have observed, the plane sure hit close to the VOR.
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I'm an ex RJ-85 pilot, and while I've no idea what they used for their planned diversion, I wouldn't be surprised if this flight was planned as a 're-clearance' operation.
In other words, you plan the flight with somewhere en route as the 'destination'.
When you are about there, you see if you have enough to proceed to your 'diversion', which is really where you wanted to land anyway.
If you have enough gas, you continue- if not, you land and refuel.
I've done this a few times, and in my view while legal, it can turn into a trap for fools.
If you go on to your 'diversion' then you KNOW that you are going to use:
Start and taxi fuel, sector fuel and diversion fuel. Thus you know that you will land with final reserve and maybe some of your contingency fuel, but that's it.
As usual, it will all come out in the wash, but I'd like to think that in these enlightened times, the days of airliners crashing simply because they 'ran out of gas' are behind us. But then, I don't fly in Columbia.....
In other words, you plan the flight with somewhere en route as the 'destination'.
When you are about there, you see if you have enough to proceed to your 'diversion', which is really where you wanted to land anyway.
If you have enough gas, you continue- if not, you land and refuel.
I've done this a few times, and in my view while legal, it can turn into a trap for fools.
If you go on to your 'diversion' then you KNOW that you are going to use:
Start and taxi fuel, sector fuel and diversion fuel. Thus you know that you will land with final reserve and maybe some of your contingency fuel, but that's it.
As usual, it will all come out in the wash, but I'd like to think that in these enlightened times, the days of airliners crashing simply because they 'ran out of gas' are behind us. But then, I don't fly in Columbia.....
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The remaining RJ85s that CityJet didn't sell to LAMIA regularly fly around the UK sending an ADS-B NUCp of 0.
Does that mean that over here we have departed from the planet without anyone noticing, or that we've torn up the rule book ?
Does that mean that over here we have departed from the planet without anyone noticing, or that we've torn up the rule book ?
NUCp zero means the ADS-B data is invalid, and any position information should be discarded.
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"Personally wondering if the "leaked" FPL is genuine or just a hoax
Seems a but unlikely to me that Fuel Endurance and Estimated En route time would exactly equal the same figure, and i am finding it hard to understand how an experienced pilot would be ok departing like that.
Im sure there is more to this than just flying direct, surely there was some kind of fuel stop planned that didn't happen for whatever reason"
Yes, there was indeed meant to be a stop for refuelling, but because the plane was late taking off, the refuelling stop wasn't possible because it was scheduled to take place at an airport that doesn't operate at night-time.
Seems a but unlikely to me that Fuel Endurance and Estimated En route time would exactly equal the same figure, and i am finding it hard to understand how an experienced pilot would be ok departing like that.
Im sure there is more to this than just flying direct, surely there was some kind of fuel stop planned that didn't happen for whatever reason"
Yes, there was indeed meant to be a stop for refuelling, but because the plane was late taking off, the refuelling stop wasn't possible because it was scheduled to take place at an airport that doesn't operate at night-time.
I am having a hard time reconciling 4:22 with any NORMAL sector times for 146/RJ's.
And yes, I know they are not identical.
My recollection is that 146's operating BME - PER (about 2:40) needed to run reduced baggage and make the occasional re-fuelling stop at Port Hedland, depending on seasonal winds / weather.
How that translates or progresses to an acceptable FP of 4:22 seems to be a giant leap of faith, even for the later aircraft.
And yes, I know they are not identical.
My recollection is that 146's operating BME - PER (about 2:40) needed to run reduced baggage and make the occasional re-fuelling stop at Port Hedland, depending on seasonal winds / weather.
How that translates or progresses to an acceptable FP of 4:22 seems to be a giant leap of faith, even for the later aircraft.
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I haven't sen any mention of is yet, but for those of you that do not remember your Greek mythology lessons.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamia Seems like a dark precursor to what happened.
I guess that now we are awaiting to see the transcripts from the CVR to get a better picture of what the climate was like on the Flight Deck and also to better understand who was sitting where and performing what role. I imagine that there was quite a large power gradient, I wonder how assertive the two first officers were, of if they were happy to go along with the plan, having been raised by the company and its culture. Right now in South America the pilot job market is incredibly tough and I get the impression from many of my students that there is a prevailing feeling of job preservation and a mentality of "If I say NO somebody else will say YES". I saw that the UK AAIB and Representatives of the Manufacturer are now in Medelin, I am curious as to how quickly a preliminary report will be issued.
I guess that now we are awaiting to see the transcripts from the CVR to get a better picture of what the climate was like on the Flight Deck and also to better understand who was sitting where and performing what role. I imagine that there was quite a large power gradient, I wonder how assertive the two first officers were, of if they were happy to go along with the plan, having been raised by the company and its culture. Right now in South America the pilot job market is incredibly tough and I get the impression from many of my students that there is a prevailing feeling of job preservation and a mentality of "If I say NO somebody else will say YES". I saw that the UK AAIB and Representatives of the Manufacturer are now in Medelin, I am curious as to how quickly a preliminary report will be issued.
Last edited by JumpJumpJump; 3rd Dec 2016 at 01:53. Reason: SPAG
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It is now clear that the aircraft simply run out of fuel, as others have from time to time. So the issue now must be how could this been allowed to happen.
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on Pprune. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on Pprune. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
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Only aware they flew this route twice in August but refueled each time enroute ( reported earlier in pprune , this thread ). Please link to reports they did it before without refueling , somehow I have missed that.
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I'm not entirely sure one way or another. Some statements here have indicated that they've done it before with no added fuel, but I don't know where that's coming from.
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I'm not entirely sure one way or another. Some statements here have indicated that they've done it before with no added fuel, but I don't know where that's coming from
http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/jus...lamia/16761870
Translated
http://www.pprune.org/9594414-post157.html
The error looks like much less than a mile to me. At any rate, the holding pattern does not seem to be plotted at the VOR but several miles south. But it appears to be very close to the extended centerline of the runway.
The ADS-B offset looks pretty close to a mile to me . It's highly likely that a similar offset applies to the published track of LM2933 in the hold, but I agree it's still not enough to put it over the VOR.
Then feel free to ignore it, we'll continue the discussion without you ...
Regarding previous flights to and from Medellin without refuelling. Yesterday's O Estado de Sao Paulo carried this article with a drawing showing four previous flights this year.
http://esportes.estadao.com.br/notic...ia,10000092090
http://esportes.estadao.com.br/notic...ia,10000092090