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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:39
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
A Also, most of those killed were members of the press.
Reports suggest 21 Journalists or photographers were on board.
Only one survived.

There are 40 people in the team photograph taken outside the aircraft, presumably they were. players trainers and support staff.


https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....?client=safari

Mickjoebill

Last edited by mickjoebill; 3rd Dec 2016 at 03:44.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:41
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xcitation View Post
In addition to the bogus flight plan would there be many other SOPs skipped or ignored?
It would certainly seem likely.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:45
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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Thr LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules.
Yet 1nm error implies a NUCp of 3, which is not acceptable to any ATS since NUCp values of 4 or lower are automatically discarded by infrastructure. With that kind of performance that RJ85 would not have been allowed to fly anywhere in the world.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:50
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alas para Volar View Post
The link doesnt work for me. Is there any evidence this is true?

If it is then the CYA plot thickens....
Try this one Investigación tras accidente de vuelo de LaMía en Antioquia - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM

The source quoted is the Colombian CAA.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:56
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
With that kind of performance that RJ85 would not have been allowed to fly anywhere in the world.
So you're saying that the ill-fated flight was a figment of our collective imagination ...
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 23:05
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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So you're saying that the ill-fated flight was a figment of our collective imagination
Or that your interpretation of the aircraft's ADS-B installation is incorrect.

Hmm, I wonder which one is more likely??
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 23:11
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
Yet 1nm error implies a NUCp of 3, which is not acceptable to any ATS since NUCp values of 4 or lower are automatically discarded by infrastructure. With that kind of performance that RJ85 would not have been allowed to fly anywhere in the world.
The remaining RJ85s that CityJet didn't sell to LAMIA regularly fly around the UK sending an ADS-B NUCp of 0.

Does that mean that over here we have departed from the planet without anyone noticing, or that we've torn up the rule book ?

Doh.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 00:34
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
Fate is the hunter. So, if the story is true of course, this catastrophe began with a player misplacing his video game, from which point the holes in the cheese slowly began to align.
If it's true they elected to give up a fuel stop looking for a passenger,s game----it was not fate but stupidity that was hunting them. Imo.

Otoh, that's a big IF.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 00:46
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The remaining RJ85s that CityJet didn't sell to LAMIA regularly fly around the UK sending an ADS-B NUCp of 0.
Were the RJ85's one of the early planes to get ADS-B installed perhaps?

Here's a 2012 post from an FR24 admin that mentions an 'old transponder' with a 'calculated position' instead of GPS in the RJ100:

There can be several issues behind incorrect positions.

* Map calibration error
* Transponder error (sending wrong or random data)
* Receiver error (some kind of error in receiving so numbers get incorrect)
* Database error (some kind of mix up in database)
* Old transponder (some aircraft like RJ100 don't have GPS position but calculated position. It works OK on take off from Gothenburg, but once they reach Stockholm they land up to 30 km off from Bromma airport).
Why is the position of the plane sometimes wrong?

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
The error looks like much less than a mile to me. At any rate, the holding pattern does not seem to be plotted at the VOR but several miles south. But it appears to be very close to the extended centerline of the runway.

Perhaps coincidental but as many have observed, the plane sure hit close to the VOR.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 00:52
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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I'm an ex RJ-85 pilot, and while I've no idea what they used for their planned diversion, I wouldn't be surprised if this flight was planned as a 're-clearance' operation.
In other words, you plan the flight with somewhere en route as the 'destination'.
When you are about there, you see if you have enough to proceed to your 'diversion', which is really where you wanted to land anyway.
If you have enough gas, you continue- if not, you land and refuel.

I've done this a few times, and in my view while legal, it can turn into a trap for fools.

If you go on to your 'diversion' then you KNOW that you are going to use:
Start and taxi fuel, sector fuel and diversion fuel. Thus you know that you will land with final reserve and maybe some of your contingency fuel, but that's it.

As usual, it will all come out in the wash, but I'd like to think that in these enlightened times, the days of airliners crashing simply because they 'ran out of gas' are behind us. But then, I don't fly in Columbia.....
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 00:54
  #531 (permalink)  
 
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The remaining RJ85s that CityJet didn't sell to LAMIA regularly fly around the UK sending an ADS-B NUCp of 0.

Does that mean that over here we have departed from the planet without anyone noticing, or that we've torn up the rule book ?
If NUCp of 0 is actually accepted then yes, you have departed from the planet.

NUCp zero means the ADS-B data is invalid, and any position information should be discarded.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 01:04
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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"Personally wondering if the "leaked" FPL is genuine or just a hoax

Seems a but unlikely to me that Fuel Endurance and Estimated En route time would exactly equal the same figure, and i am finding it hard to understand how an experienced pilot would be ok departing like that.

Im sure there is more to this than just flying direct, surely there was some kind of fuel stop planned that didn't happen for whatever reason"


Yes, there was indeed meant to be a stop for refuelling, but because the plane was late taking off, the refuelling stop wasn't possible because it was scheduled to take place at an airport that doesn't operate at night-time.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 02:10
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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I am having a hard time reconciling 4:22 with any NORMAL sector times for 146/RJ's.
And yes, I know they are not identical.
My recollection is that 146's operating BME - PER (about 2:40) needed to run reduced baggage and make the occasional re-fuelling stop at Port Hedland, depending on seasonal winds / weather.
How that translates or progresses to an acceptable FP of 4:22 seems to be a giant leap of faith, even for the later aircraft.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 02:29
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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If the pilot knew that they had very fine limits on fuel, why the agreement on a holding pattern?
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 02:48
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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I haven't sen any mention of is yet, but for those of you that do not remember your Greek mythology lessons.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamia Seems like a dark precursor to what happened.

I guess that now we are awaiting to see the transcripts from the CVR to get a better picture of what the climate was like on the Flight Deck and also to better understand who was sitting where and performing what role. I imagine that there was quite a large power gradient, I wonder how assertive the two first officers were, of if they were happy to go along with the plan, having been raised by the company and its culture. Right now in South America the pilot job market is incredibly tough and I get the impression from many of my students that there is a prevailing feeling of job preservation and a mentality of "If I say NO somebody else will say YES". I saw that the UK AAIB and Representatives of the Manufacturer are now in Medelin, I am curious as to how quickly a preliminary report will be issued.

Last edited by JumpJumpJump; 3rd Dec 2016 at 02:53. Reason: SPAG
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 02:56
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=32b_1480556495
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 03:04
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
It is now clear that the aircraft simply run out of fuel, as others have from time to time. So the issue now must be how could this been allowed to happen.
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on PPRuNe. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
Assuming the reports are true that this was not the first time they'd flown this route (in one direction or the other) without refueling, it would suggest that this isn't the first time they filed a flight plan with no reserve fuel. Once might be an oversight, but if it was done repeatedly, someone knew it and apparently did nothing about it.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 03:22
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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Only aware they flew this route twice in August but refueled each time enroute ( reported earlier in PPRuNe , this thread ). Please link to reports they did it before without refueling , somehow I have missed that.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 04:58
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TylerMonkey View Post
Only aware they flew this route twice in August but refueled each time enroute ( reported earlier in PPRuNe , this thread ). Please link to reports they did it before without refueling , somehow I have missed that.
I'm not entirely sure one way or another. Some statements here have indicated that they've done it before with no added fuel, but I don't know where that's coming from.
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Old 3rd Dec 2016, 06:17
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not entirely sure one way or another. Some statements here have indicated that they've done it before with no added fuel, but I don't know where that's coming from
It came from this interview.
http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/jus...lamia/16761870

Translated

http://www.pprune.org/9594414-post157.html
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