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Maroc 737 in loss-of-lift incident at FRA

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Maroc 737 in loss-of-lift incident at FRA

Old 25th Aug 2016, 20:42
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My BS sensor is showing a warning.
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 20:53
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My religion sensor is showing a warning ...
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 21:16
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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After all the comments about cock-ups, and there must have been one or more, may I commend the PF on a seemingly non-panic manoeuvre that kept the tail intact, i.er. good pitch control, allowed a gentle kiss to departing runway in fond farewell and an application of extra oomph that allowed the early bonds to be broken in a pitch controlled manner.
I suspect the TL's were advanced PDQ, but the nose didn't rear like Nick Skelton's Olympic winning show jumper.
I always say that pilots will dig holes, many times. It's what you do next that counts. There are those who jump in and keep digging; usually only once. There are those who have fallen in, are surprised, but find a climb out and there are those who teeter on the edge and retreat. I suspect this was the middle one.
I also reflect on the RTO section of the takeoff brief, where one reason is "aircraft unfit to fly." This was passed V1, but perhaps there was a lot of runway remaining at FRA: depends on where they started. I wonder if there was a momentary pause to consider an RTO, but the a/c behaviour didn't seem to suggest that. It would be interesting to know where their initial rotate point was and the final liftoff.

Last edited by RAT 5; 25th Aug 2016 at 22:57.
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 22:58
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Is it possible all bags were loaded in the front, and the rear hold not checked in error? Saw it happen years ago, in reverse, when front of a GoFly aircraft wasn't checked and there was 500kg of freight (think it might have been a/c parts). Aircraft was very quickly re-trimmed to get it off the deck, I'm told.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 00:47
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rat
I always say that pilots will dig holes, many times. It's what you do next that counts. There are those who jump in and keep digging; usually only once. There are those who have fallen in, are surprised, but find a climb out and there are those who teeter on the edge and retreat. I suspect this was the middle one.
A particularly poignant post in light of the "follow the SOP" talkfest on other threads...
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 01:40
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was that rotate at V1 or v2...let me check the FM....

if they wanted to avoid wake from the A330, they would rotate earlier....not later.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 02:07
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.
I am sure the truth will emerge once they read the CVR and FDR.
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Or maybe not....
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 02:31
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Those flaps appear to be set at 1. Not enough for 5. I have never done a flaps 1 takeoff as our company's performance data doesn't cater for it, but I am pretty sure it is allowed. This is why you rotate slowly at higher weights, I so often see people try and launch the thing into the air and I think to myself... that is going to bite you in the ass one day. Rotate a bit, get a feel for the aircraft and it is usually abundantly clear if something isn't right. If it feels wrong then just rotate 1000ft before the end of the runway.

OntimeexceptACARS,

I'd be very surprised if 500kg of freight in the wrong locker would have such a severe effect. According to the FCTM, trim sit anywhere in the takeoff band the pilot should be able to rotate the aircraft successfully.
 
Old 26th Aug 2016, 02:48
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Is this being formally investigated as an incident by the BFU?
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 06:37
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For a V-speeds gross error check on the B757/767 I compiled this form a few years back. The basic template could be used for other types. Nearly all our B757 take-offs were Flaps 15 and B767 Flaps 5. It took just a couple of seconds to cross-check the FMC data to prevent embarrassment (or worse).
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 06:51
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Absolutely a flaps 1 attempted takeoff. I wonder whether this would have activated the auto-slats feature as they rotated. (The slats would automatically move from extend to full extend)
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 07:16
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Looks like they had the speed, but lacked lift. F1 takeoff - not enough lift upon rotation.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 07:31
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There might be a good clue in the video. Wind noise to the max. Maybe a shift combined with wrong perf?
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 07:31
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Donít think it was much to do with trim as they were able to achieve a body angle greater than that for a normal rotation without leaving the ground, initially. That shows they were too slow for the aircraft configuration.

Whether they used a different flap setting than planned and/or the wrong speeds (weights) I donít think you can tell. It does look like a fairly gross error, though.

A V1/Vr mixup is possible as technically you can have a V1 split off a 4,000m runway if you want but it's most unlikely IMHO.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 07:56
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"That shows they were too slow for the aircraft configuration."

Ding!
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 08:09
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After false information was spread out regarding flight AT811 from FRA to CMN on July 23, we want to clarify that during take-off, ATC advised of possible wake turbulence from adjacent landing A330. In turn, the Captain decided to execute a manoeuvre to gain more speed until they reached speeds that would ensure a safe take-off".
Isn't that a takeoff from runway 18, whereas the TK A330 is landing on 7R? Runway 18 and the flightpath of runway 7R intersect, I would guess, merely 1.200-1.500 feet form the threshold of runway 18. As the fire station gives a good indicator about locations, rotation appears to be rather early, although the angle from which the footage was taken could be misleading.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 08:28
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Great response from RAM, truly honest, shows the safety culture.
Not signing the OFP is SAFA level 2 finding but such takeoff is ok. Next please.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 08:58
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Perhaps all those substantial trees lining the runway at Frankfurt had an affect on the wind gradient at ground level. Nothing like a good strong headwind to improve airspeed while still rolling....
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 09:04
  #39 (permalink)  
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I estimate the rotation began somewhere around 600 m, crossing the approach of 07R about a second later.
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 09:30
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Do they use data cards?
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