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Pilot scrap with dispatcher at LGW

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Pilot scrap with dispatcher at LGW

Old 1st Aug 2016, 09:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Captains decision is final only once the aircraft has motion, until then they or equal to all other decision makers - ground crew, cabin crew ATC, police etc.


Yes at any stage prior to motion they can refuse to carry out duties OR be FORCED not to carry out motion by lets say Mr Branson if he wants to make that call.

Never heard of a pilot to take a cancelled flights aircraft just to get home because the boss cancelled a flight, but heard many of them complain about not getting home that night.

Responsibility is not just a captain thing, but yes at a point it does and only until the next point. Limits apply to all.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 10:04
  #22 (permalink)  
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In that case Band a Lot who makes the decision to refuse, for instance, disruptive passengers prior to "motion"?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 10:13
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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And who makes the decision of how much motion lotion to upload before motion happens. It certainly isn't the dispatcher.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 10:56
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Any person of authority along the route can reject a passenger prior to motion inc Feds.

Will a captain want more motion lotion than the manufacture states of in case of ferry what FAA or other states? not a captain decision is it? but is his limitation, a captain is not god but many think they are - A Fed agent can stop a flight at any time before push back regardless of what captain wants to do - 911 told captains what to do also that was LAND regardless of motion lotion on captains hand at that time.

Captaincy HAS limitations my friends.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:27
  #25 (permalink)  
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Yes but when that "any person" says the drunk idiot will be ok to travel do you just shrug your shoulders and let them on?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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This discussion is moving into silly areas.

Of course there are legal and practical limitations on a Captain's authority, but it is his duty to take steps to preserve the safety of his airplane and passengers. Laws and regulations, sops and company stipulations cannot hope to cover all situations. Obviously there's a distinction between decisions made on the ground and in the air.

You can't trust Captains to make the right decision all the time but in my experience ground staff are generally less trained, experienced and frankly disinterested in the safety of the flight to make the best decision. After all, they're not the ones who'll be airborne in an aluminium can with wings when the worse case scenario comes calling.

I had a dispatcher in Warsaw once tell me that it was unnecessary to anti-ice the airplane. She put up quite a fight because there was no precipation at that moment in time, clearly regarding my authority as Captain to be subservient to her couple of years dispatching flights. She only relented when the snow I calmly predicted started falling: suddenly anti-icing was needed. Arguing was such a waste of everyone's time and energy. Even if I hadn't been right, what authority did she have to deny the request?
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 04:06
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Wow, strange discussions. I tend to agree with despegue that the captain has the final decision (at least in my company), it's pretty logical as well and has nothing to do with the so called "Commanders authority".

There's 2 parties:
- the ground handling company
- the airline

My company gives me manager rights so that I can act in name of the company when I'm operating the aircraft.

The aircraft is property of the airline so it's pretty logical that the owner has the final saying on what is loaded, who is loaded, how it is loaded, what services are required etc...

If the ground handling company does not want to do that, that is their right. But they can not decide anything as it is not their property.

That being said, being disrespectful is never OK and very unprofessional.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 06:19
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Dispatchers come in all shapes, sizes and attitudes. The worst are the Spanish, who are polite but simply ****. They have an aversion to arriving at the aircraft before T-5 because they don't like dealing with LMCs.

A good dispatcher usually sweats like a pig with all the running around especially in the heat and will invariably smell of body odour. They should recognise that and refrain from handshakes!
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 06:28
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So the correct answer to "Are you sure? That seems to be a lot less fuel than we normally load" is "Captain always has the final decision NO DISCUSSION" and you're all happy with that?
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 13:34
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Band a lot, are you suggesting the FAA or others have authority over the commander on how much fuel to carry? That they can limit the fuel carried on ferry flights or other ops? If so, you are sorely mistaken. Nobody has more authority on the fuel load than the commander, and that is enshrined in aviation law everywhere. Besides, authorities prescribe what minimum quantities (timewise) have to be carried for flights in terms of contingency, diversion, reserve and so on, but they never get involved in a figure and would never limit a commander to only the figure on a flight plan. And please stop using silly terms to sound nonchalant; it's unconvincing.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 16:40
  #31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by baselb
So the correct answer to "Are you sure? That seems to be a lot less fuel than we normally load" is "Captain always has the final decision NO DISCUSSION" and you're all happy with that?
Wrong end of the stick again. It is a fact that the captain has the final say and it is that which is not open to discussion.

The answer would be - yes, there's a massive tailwind that you're unaware of.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 20:28
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Band a Lot
Captains decision is final only once the aircraft has motion, until then they or equal to all other decision makers - ground crew, cabin crew ATC, police etc.


Yes at any stage prior to motion they can refuse to carry out duties OR be FORCED not to carry out motion by lets say Mr Branson if he wants to make that call.

Never heard of a pilot to take a cancelled flights aircraft just to get home because the boss cancelled a flight, but heard many of them complain about not getting home that night.

Responsibility is not just a captain thing, but yes at a point it does and only until the next point. Limits apply to all.
In the uk the period of command commences when the commander enters the aircraft with the intention of flight. Utter nonsense talking about aircraft in motion in afraid.
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Old 3rd Aug 2016, 14:58
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Just wondering .......

If some people don't think the buck stops with the Captain ....... then who do they think it does stop with?

This is not the same as trying to say any Captain is incapable of making an error.

When I go on a cruise, I don't tell to go up to the bridge and tell the Captain how to drive his ship: BECAUSE HE IS PAID AND HAS BEEN NOMINATED BY THE OWNERS TO BE THERE.

Next subject!!!!

F&B
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Old 3rd Aug 2016, 15:04
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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So why does the captain argue with the ground handlers who his company has nominated and paid to ground-handle the aeroplane?

There is a small nugget of reality and rational sense in this thread, but it is completely obscured by the near incessant willy-waving of that section of the aircrew fraternity who seem to have serious self-esteem issues. I'm surprised the rest of you don't take these poor chaps behind the bike sheds and give them some percussive education to reduce stem the flood of contempt that's heading for pilots as a "profession".

PDR
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Old 3rd Aug 2016, 15:30
  #35 (permalink)  
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PDR, it's not will waving it's an indisputable fact. If you can't tell the difference perhaps you shouldn't comment.

By the way, who's arguing with the ground handlers?!
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Old 3rd Aug 2016, 15:34
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Aegean is far from low cost. In fact it insists on charging more than Lufthansa on the same code-shared flights...
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Old 3rd Aug 2016, 16:18
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QUOTE:

I had a dispatcher in Warsaw once tell me that it was unnecessary to anti-ice the airplane. She put up quite a fight because there was no precipation at that moment in time, clearly regarding my authority as Captain to be subservient to her couple of years dispatching flights. She only relented when the snow I calmly predicted started falling: suddenly anti-icing was needed.

We will have weather forecasters out of work, then.

Just as well I am retired!
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 03:26
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So why does the captain argue with the ground handlers who his company has nominated and paid to ground-handle the aeroplane?
- Because the captain is usually the first to arrive at the scene of the crash;

- Because the captain bears ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight, and the jet shouldn't be going anywhere unless the captain's satisfied that it's safe and legal for it to do so; and

- Because ground handlers are coming under increasing pressure (KPIs etc) to achieve on-time departures. Pilots, not so much. So every so often we see ground staff applying pressure (including to the engineers and pilots) to depart on time, when there are still questions that need answering. Right off the top of my head I can think of two cases where ground staff didn't just apply pressure to colleagues of mine, they flat-out lied their arses off to try and force an on-time departure. The first case would've been a flagrant breach of procedures, common sense, and the relevant security legislation. The second would've caused a huge weight and balance error, and would almost certainly have resulted in the loss of the aircraft and 300 lives. (The ground handler concerned had to seek alternative employment as a result. )

That is why the captain is arguing with the ground handlers. Perhaps instead we should be asking, "Why are the ground handlers arguing with the captain?"

Yes, there are the willy-wavers with self-esteem issues that you mention. They're out there, they like using the word "commander" a lot, and they can be a pain in the arse. Not much we can do about that, and ultimately the jet's still not going anywhere until they're happy that it's safe and legal for it to do so. The sooner you can make them happy, the sooner they're off-blocks.

Last edited by itsnotthatbloodyhard; 4th Aug 2016 at 04:29.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 08:12
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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langleybaston,

I'm not sure I understand your comment.

One does not need a carefully constructed TAF or experienced meteorologist in the cockpit to make a decision to protect an airplane from precipitation that is clearly wafting its merry way towards the airfield while you're in the middle of a turnaround.

Or perhaps you do.

As it happens, my judgment was wholly correct on this occasion.

Kind regards, MH152
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 14:43
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From all the years that I have been flying, only a couple of months ago I had to send a handling agent off the aircraft. It happened in MAN and after my report, I realized it wasn't the first time that there were problems with that company (probably with the same guy). Usually I find good professionals despite the cutting to the bone strategy that all companies are using nowadays.
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