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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 22nd May 2016, 17:05
  #581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: norfolk
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Completely off topic, but how did aircraft ever fly safely with an ashtray next to every seat, including in the cockpit?[

Probably a lot safer, as nobody felt the need to smoke in the toilets.
Smoking was stopped not because of the fire risk but to avoid the airlines being sued for long term health damage to crew and other passengers.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:06
  #582 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wageslave View Post
Except that normal strength spirits are not flammable.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:17
  #583 (permalink)  
 
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Mike Vivian ex CAA Head of Ops was on BBC this morning. He is the only "expert' that speaks common sense and loads of knowledge
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:28
  #584 (permalink)  
 
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Four words:
Kapton. Swissair Flight 111.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:37
  #585 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Thanks Organfreak..interesting piece re that one
Swissair 111 Reconsidered | Airliners.net
& from that:"Even though the use of Kapton wire and Mylar/MPET insulation in the construction of new aircraft has been banned, there is still an enormous number of aircraft flying that contain these dangerous and defective components. "
That was written in late 2007. I wonder how many planes still in service have this wiring?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:47
  #586 (permalink)  
 
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I know there is lot of talk about iPads, but what about ubiquitous cheap power banks everyone happily buying for long trips and vacations.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 17:48
  #587 (permalink)  
 
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Just out of curiosity, are all of the Flight Control Computers located in the same physical place on FBW aircraft, such as the A320 ? In my job (IT), it's best practice to have redundancy of not just data, but of the hardware - including having the failover system in a different location.

If there were a fire in the avionics bay, severe enough to take out all computers in there, is there any chance the A320 could still remain flyable ? I know there's no cable system so I suppose I've answered my own question haven't I ?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:13
  #588 (permalink)  
 
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Organfreak. TKT = Teflon/Kapton/Teflon (that's a much safer aromatic polyimide wiring insulation). That was the smart Airbus move.
Most of the Kapton is now in the boneyards in a vast array of military aircraft and airliners. In most cases, it was predominantly the Kapton that put them there. In many cases, because of the expensive innards (such as in P-3 Orions and S-3 Vikings) it was always cheaper to rewire at a major scheduled refit.

Last edited by WeeWinkyWilly; 22nd May 2016 at 18:17. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:17
  #589 (permalink)  
 
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The sort of "fire" obtained by an electrical arc is outside the scope of any extinguisher we carry on board, partly because it isn't actually a fire in the conventionally meant sense.
Electrical arcs are a kind of short circuit and should be disconnected by circuit breakers. The circuit is shortened by good conductive ionized air. Of cause the protection function of CBs is not absolute.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:22
  #590 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wageslave View Post
As a purely speculative suggestion to illustrate the possibility one might imagine a scenario where the ipad or notebook in the side stowage brewed up, FO fled his seat, Capt dons mask so comms v. difficult. FO can't get at device due smoke, heat and molten metal spraying from the burning batteries. It's but a short step then to the crew oxygen mask lines and wiring behind the side panelling in which reside high current window heat cables and more...
Do you have any experience with LiPo fire? I guess not.
While those things are not quite hamless, they are no nuclear bombs either.
I have removed a burning ~1kg LiPO from the Trunk of an estate car by grabbing it at the cables of the charger. (Notice to self: Will not load LiPos again in the Trunk of a car).
Although it was quite a fire, with 5x 1 Liter bottles of water the 1kg battery could be relatively quickly extinguished.
In an iPad you have a <0,1kg battery.
I have no idea where the notion comes from that you can't get to within 1m of a burning iPad. You probably will have some burns on your fingers afterwards and there will be quite some smoke but come on... when your Life (and that of dozens of others for that matter) is at stake.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:25
  #591 (permalink)  
 
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anengineer: #586

As you say, pure fbw, with no mechanical backup.and the a/c cannot fly at all without the electronics. .It's surprising therefore that there is no fire suppressant around the avionics systems. Assuming an electrical short taking out power supplies, even redundant systems could fail, or in the case of serious fire, the various systems could fail one by one over time as the heat reaches them. I know the acars is fragmentary evidence, but whatever happened seems to have happened over just a few minutes, which would need a fairly aggressive fire to heat all those systems to non operational state, because of the thermal mass involved...

Last edited by syseng68k; 22nd May 2016 at 18:40.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:30
  #592 (permalink)  
 
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Henra, Most iPads have L-ion batteries. Li-Po batteries (from my rc helicopter days) will not extinguish in water- they'll reignite once out of it and make its own oxy. The only way is put them under a layer of sand for this reason.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:44
  #593 (permalink)  
 
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A320 Mechanical back up

More Conjecture! Lets let the Aircraft accident investigators do their jobs, please.
I hope the sub finds the black box soon.


Anengineer, it appears you do not know or understand the A320, so please do not write bull.
The A320 has mechanical back up.
Speaking hypothetically of the A320
Also, You can also put the aircraft into a emergency electrical configuration, with the RAT, powering the electrical system, independantly, and the A320 is flyable in this condition providing you can see through the smoke to the instruments. If you go into the emergency electrical configuration, powering the RAT, you have isolated the electrical system.

¨As you say, pure flw, with no mechanical backup.and the a/c cannot fly at all without the electronics.¨

A320 MECHANICAL BACK UP
PITCH
Mechanical backup enables the pilot to control the aircraft during a temporary complete loss of electrical power.
He does this in pitch by manually applying trim to the THS.
The PFDs display “MAN PITCH TRIM ONLY” in red.
LATERAL
The pilot uses the rudder pedals as the mechanical backup to laterally control the aircraft .

Last edited by Magnetic Iron; 22nd May 2016 at 19:04.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 18:46
  #594 (permalink)  
 
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I've had a Li-Po battery blow up (because of a short) and it was pretty dramatic. Lot of heat and smoke.
Only a comment to illustrate that these batteries can be scary. Not any suggestion that this was part of the 804 problem
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Old 22nd May 2016, 19:01
  #595 (permalink)  
 
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So there is a minimal control, but sounds fairly primitive in terms of safely landing the a/c, especially if flight displays are compromised. Also, would the engines keep running, fuel pumps etc ?. Modern electronic systems are very, very reliable, but only ever as good as their power source...
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Old 22nd May 2016, 19:05
  #596 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RIGHTSEATKC135 View Post
Having been a first officer on a KC-135R, and having experienced an engine shutdown on my #3 engine, followed by a fire warning on #1 (determined to be erroneous while my Captain was issuing our MAYDAY call), while almost 400-miles from the nearest adequate runway, I, for one, was more than glad to have had that flight engineer's carcass stationed four feet from my back.

Stuff happens, and it sometimes gets damned busy in the cockpit. That third set of eyes, and ears is often priceless, no matter what the bean counters say.
Ummmmmmm, I'm well into my second decade on the 'R' model, but I can't seem to recall an FE ever looking over my shoulder. On the 707, of which I only have a couple thousand hours in command, we had them, but they were mainly there to make fun of the FOs.

So, I guess I'm calling bs
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Old 22nd May 2016, 19:38
  #597 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Local Variation View Post
Conso. Halon is banned and has been for along time.
It is still used and allowed for aircraft and certain other critical areas. It does not work well for Li fires. Production is allowed but restricted.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 19:43
  #598 (permalink)  
 
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We have to be reminded that whatever happened happened very quickly and to the point that neither crew member got a radio call in or something so dramatic occurred that everything was knocked out including the radios
perhaps they were running checks without success as systems decayed.

communication among themselves might have taken up their time.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 20:11
  #599 (permalink)  
 
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[quote=capewrath;9384881]
Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
@aussiepax: read...think...write... in that order


@Ian W: A severe fire needs two things - etc.............


The Fire Triangle.
Fire (not just on a an aircraft) needs 3 things - heat, fuel and oxygen.
That is only true of normal fires. But the lithium battery fires do not need any of those to start. They are 'fueled' by chemical/electrical energy and do not need oxygen. All you can do is cool them ideally flooding them with water removing the heat from the exothermic reaction. Many IEDs are made of critical mixes of reducing and oxidizing agents that will 'explosively' react even under water - initiation may be as minor as a knock or vibration or a flash of light. If the mix is varied the reaction may not be explosive but be a violent high temperature fire, A 'peaceful' use of such a mix is a thermite lance which is often used underwater.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 20:19
  #600 (permalink)  
 
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What are the authorities doing regarding other A320 s if they suspect a major defect with 1000s of A320s flying daily ?
Waiting for enough firm evidence to base any action upon.
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