BA108 intercepted on April 30'th
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@Airbubba
Quote from the Hungarian AIP (I quess the last sentence is the main thing here):
"The controller-pilot data link communication (CPDLC) application provides a means of communication between the controller and the pilot, using data link for ATC
communication. CPDLC services are available for ACFT in the entire Hungarian airspace above FL285.The following CPDLC services are provided in this airspace:
•DLIC (data link initiation capability)
•ACL (ATC clearances and instructions)
•ACM (ATC communications management)
•AMC (ATC microphone check)
The use of CPDLC is not mandatory in this airspace and is conducted at the discretion of ATC and at the initiative of the pilots concerned."
Don't Hungary and BA already have CPDLC? I show a requirement on the chart to log on to LHCC 15 minutes prior to entering the Budapest FIR.
"The controller-pilot data link communication (CPDLC) application provides a means of communication between the controller and the pilot, using data link for ATC
communication. CPDLC services are available for ACFT in the entire Hungarian airspace above FL285.The following CPDLC services are provided in this airspace:
•DLIC (data link initiation capability)
•ACL (ATC clearances and instructions)
•ACM (ATC communications management)
•AMC (ATC microphone check)
The use of CPDLC is not mandatory in this airspace and is conducted at the discretion of ATC and at the initiative of the pilots concerned."
I think the problem is that there are so many aircraft airborne these days, and ATC sectors have been combined; that VHF ATC comms are becoming so busy (in Europe) that in some regions there can be near constant chatter on Box 1. Add to this the conversations on 121.5 between old mates and it becomes unmanageable at times.
In just the last week, I missed calls three times from Box 1 because they were 'stepped on' in my headset by stations on 121.5. I think I will have to start putting in ASR's about this.
Sometimes one has to actually turn off 121.5, but then of course how do you remember to switch it back on?
As an ex communications engineer, I like "personfromporlock's" idea of a temporary mute button: A non-locking button that you pressed which would mute box 2 for, say, one minute.
In just the last week, I missed calls three times from Box 1 because they were 'stepped on' in my headset by stations on 121.5. I think I will have to start putting in ASR's about this.
Sometimes one has to actually turn off 121.5, but then of course how do you remember to switch it back on?
As an ex communications engineer, I like "personfromporlock's" idea of a temporary mute button: A non-locking button that you pressed which would mute box 2 for, say, one minute.
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Another perhaps easier solution would be if the ECAM memo (or equivalent) would display the message '121.5 NOT MONITORED' in Amber.
This assumes that the software of the ACPs (audio control panels) would be capable of modification to detect if : the box 2 audio buttons were selected, and/or that 121.5 was dialled up in the active channel.
Airbus and Boeing et al can have this idea for free in the interests of better safety.
This assumes that the software of the ACPs (audio control panels) would be capable of modification to detect if : the box 2 audio buttons were selected, and/or that 121.5 was dialled up in the active channel.
Airbus and Boeing et al can have this idea for free in the interests of better safety.
Originally Posted by Uplinker
Another perhaps easier solution would be if the ECAM memo (or equivalent) would display the message '121.5 NOT MONITORED' in Amber.
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Another perhaps easier solution would be if the ECAM memo (or equivalent) would display the message '121.5 NOT MONITORED' in Amber.
Wouldn't take too much to add an alert similar to 'Pilot Response' linked to box 2.
The EICAS message/alert might be the way to go but a couple of observations:
1. Are you going to have the alert displayed every time you deliberately go off 121.5 to get ATIS or talk to company et.al (Yes, I know on some types there's the luxury of having 3 VHF Boxes,but it seems some types don't).
2. Will an alert be triggered, if, say, VHR X has 121.5 as the active freq, , the crew have correct audio selected on the ACP but volume(s) is/are turned down.
1. Are you going to have the alert displayed every time you deliberately go off 121.5 to get ATIS or talk to company et.al (Yes, I know on some types there's the luxury of having 3 VHF Boxes,but it seems some types don't).
2. Will an alert be triggered, if, say, VHR X has 121.5 as the active freq, , the crew have correct audio selected on the ACP but volume(s) is/are turned down.
Controversial, moi?
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....it looks like CPDLC is just another system that most controllers will remember with a chuckle.
I no longer fly commercially and cannot comment on its use elsewhere.
There was a good suggestion on this thread that ATC and/or the military could have rung up BA Ops and asked them to ACARS the aircraft in question with a frequency to contact. BA 777s have satcom as well, so ground agencies could have made a call, too.
Seems like something that should be set up in the command centres of the various civil/military ATC units. Could save a bit of bother and expense for all.
I don’t know the exact frequency of this kind of incident but I think it’s quite high - possibly several times a day over the whole of European airspace...
Seems like something that should be set up in the command centres of the various civil/military ATC units. Could save a bit of bother and expense for all.
I don’t know the exact frequency of this kind of incident but I think it’s quite high - possibly several times a day over the whole of European airspace...
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A similar event occurred with an EK crew who were given Final Warning letters and a financial penalty.
AirBubba - if you log onto Budapest 15 minutes prior to entry, how does the previous centre contact you using CPDLC? I ask as most of the sectors I control will be crossed by a B777 in less than 10 minutes. If they are already logged on to the next FIR before even entering the sector then doesn't that defeat the object in the first place?
The use of CPDLC is not mandatory in this airspace and is conducted at the discretion of ATC and at the initiative of the pilots concerned.
I don’t know the exact frequency of this kind of incident but I think it’s quite high - possibly several times a day over the whole of European airspace...
ATC and/or the military could have rung up BA Ops and asked them to ACARS the aircraft in question
I guess doing it that way saved ATC ringing directory enquiries and also the cost of an international call....
Edit to add: Genuine query - as anyone here actually used CPDLC with Budapest?
wiggy
The EICAS message/alert might be the way to go but a couple of observations:
1. Are you going to have the alert displayed every time you deliberately go off 121.5 to get ATIS or talk to company et.al...........
2. Will an alert be triggered, if, say, VHR X has 121.5 as the active freq, , the crew have correct audio selected on the ACP but volume(s) is/are turned down.
The EICAS message/alert might be the way to go but a couple of observations:
1. Are you going to have the alert displayed every time you deliberately go off 121.5 to get ATIS or talk to company et.al...........
2. Will an alert be triggered, if, say, VHR X has 121.5 as the active freq, , the crew have correct audio selected on the ACP but volume(s) is/are turned down.
1. Could do, or perhaps not until after say 1 minute of non monitoring 121.5, so the caution will not appear straight away when PM is talking to company or getting weather, but will pop up after a time period - to be determined?
2. There is no technical reason why not.
Perhaps an even easier way of doing this would be to monitor the audio output of box 1 downstream of the ACP selector and volume control and trigger an Amber ECAM caution or Memo "Check Comms" after a period of radio silence longer than say a few minutes. This would detect sleeping receivers, un-selected radios and radios turned right down.
Last edited by Uplinker; 2nd May 2016 at 17:58.
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At times when I hear my fellow Company "missing" on frequency, I have sent a message to our NOC, Network Operations Center on CPDLC and ask them to tell XYZ to go on 123....45 for ATC (requested ATC freq) and 2 minutes later they on frequency!
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Most loss of coms in my experience are America based Airlines coming off the Nat tracks early morning. & orange ones in the BDX fir.
So I wonder if some form of fatigue is involved. Please don't think I am having a go at anyone/airline as it may be just that there are more of those operators in those FIRs.
(numbers game)
So I wonder if some form of fatigue is involved. Please don't think I am having a go at anyone/airline as it may be just that there are more of those operators in those FIRs.
(numbers game)
Its going through that whole control/decision bit that has the potential for that, which includes a lot of mugs on the ground these days sine micromanagement of everything being all the rage. In this case, that most odious modern trait, micromanagement, lends a few more layers of "oops" prevention than not.
Do you, or any other air transport pilot, need to be reminded of how innocent a large plane isn't unless you know who's in there and what they're doing? I doubt it. Verification got a hard push towards Ops Normal since a fateful day in 2001. No sir, we don't get to un-write history.
In this case, it's nice to see that comms were eventually established and all ended well -- as it should.
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I think you're seeing insults where there are none.
Accidents happen, as I'm sure you know, and you're more likely to be shoot by something that is armed than by something that is not.
Accidents happen, as I'm sure you know, and you're more likely to be shoot by something that is armed than by something that is not.
We are all aware of KAL 007, among others, on both sides of the equation. What we can't do is pretend that the increased tension in the air is something that can be wished away, and with a finger pointed at those whose profession is handling the armed birds, just as PPRuNe is at it core for those whose profession is handling the unarmed birds, I found it (and Ian W's overwrought follow up) to be indicative of an unfortunate divide between camps.
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Most loss of coms in my experience are America based Airlines coming off the Nat tracks early morning. & orange ones in the BDX fir.
Quick look elsewhere also shows an Egypt Air flight intercepted by Israeli F15s last month and a Monarch flight intercepted by Croatian MiG21s last year.
