RJ85 damaged Florence
Join Date: Aug 2004
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What is so challenging at Florence compared to the other end of the route, and Cityjet's operating base, at London City ?
Close-in terrain; not too many hills/mountains around LCY.
one-way RWY (both for TO & LDG)
+
TW often of the gusty type
+
short RWY
+
critical for the OEI SID
WHBM:
You might (or might not) be interested to know that I spent some time in the BAe146 simulator at Hatfield in 1992 with the FAA looking at the possibility of making 7 degree approaches into London City (also Aspen, Colorado and Casper, Wyoming).
We successfully proved that a 7 degree slope was only just possible if absolutely everything was done in a perfect fashion and there was absolutely no room for error. In order to cater for an average crew in an average aircraft on an average day, 5.5 degrees was eventually decided upon by those in power.
I would much rather operate into LCY than FRZ any day but that is a personal opinion of course.
You might (or might not) be interested to know that I spent some time in the BAe146 simulator at Hatfield in 1992 with the FAA looking at the possibility of making 7 degree approaches into London City (also Aspen, Colorado and Casper, Wyoming).
We successfully proved that a 7 degree slope was only just possible if absolutely everything was done in a perfect fashion and there was absolutely no room for error. In order to cater for an average crew in an average aircraft on an average day, 5.5 degrees was eventually decided upon by those in power.
I would much rather operate into LCY than FRZ any day but that is a personal opinion of course.
Just out of curiosity, I've just dug out some ILS 05 plates for Florence which were valid when I retired in 2006. The MSA in the approach sector is 4,300 ft, in the go around sector to the east it is 7,500 ft. To the west and north west it is 8,400 ft. The touch down elevation for runway 05 is 123 ft so it really is a bit hilly round there!
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Is it not one of 'those' places, you know the type where the conversation goes something like:
AIRCRAFT: wind check please
ATC: 230/12G22
AIRCRAFT: that's out of our limits, request the circle to land on XX
ATC: what are your limits
AIRCRAFT: tail wind of 10KTS
ATC: ok, wind 230 at 10, you're cleared to land
AIRCRAFT: Um, OK.........
Heard something similar elsewhere in Italy. We held off and did the circle to land. Much to their obvious annoyance. But in some places they couldn't care less about you or your passengers.
AIRCRAFT: wind check please
ATC: 230/12G22
AIRCRAFT: that's out of our limits, request the circle to land on XX
ATC: what are your limits
AIRCRAFT: tail wind of 10KTS
ATC: ok, wind 230 at 10, you're cleared to land
AIRCRAFT: Um, OK.........
Heard something similar elsewhere in Italy. We held off and did the circle to land. Much to their obvious annoyance. But in some places they couldn't care less about you or your passengers.
You might (or might not) be interested to know that I spent some time in the BAe146 simulator at Hatfield in 1992 with the FAA looking at the possibility of making 7 degree approaches into London City (also Aspen, Colorado and Casper, Wyoming).
We successfully proved that a 7 degree slope was only just possible if absolutely everything was done in a perfect fashion and there was absolutely no room for error. In order to cater for an average crew in an average aircraft on an average day, 5.5 degrees was eventually decided upon by those in power.
We successfully proved that a 7 degree slope was only just possible if absolutely everything was done in a perfect fashion and there was absolutely no room for error. In order to cater for an average crew in an average aircraft on an average day, 5.5 degrees was eventually decided upon by those in power.
Is LCY a Commander Only landing for Cityjet ? What about Florence ?
Italy is notorious for reporting tailwinds within limits rather than switch runways or give you a circling approach. ATC think they're being helpful to saving hassle. Ciampino is notorious for it, and the number of times I've sat at the hold there observing the windsock and then listening to tower reported wind and wondering how they could possibly get away with the discrepancy (and making sure we departed with full thrust and speeds for a limiting tailwind!)
To emphasise JWscud's comments about tail winds. I once stopped a flight in BOL because everywhere in the Po valley was giving strong southwesterly winds except FRZ which was calm. We disembarked the pax and they were bussed to FRZ. The agent in FRZ heard of this and cabled head office asking why the Captain had not come over the hills to FRZ. Just as she pressed the "send" button Meridiana came in on 05 and went straight off the end. You could see the tyre tracks half way up the hill for months. Needless to say the Chief Pilot only said to me that he fully supported my decision to abort the flight where it was. The agent was very nice (if a bit sheepish) to me for a while afterwards. Anyone who was about at the time will recognise the airline and the personalities concerned and I still smile about that story today.
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Florence are one of the worst airports for lying about winds due to the majority of airlines including cityjet only allowed to make an approach onto 05. They know aircraft have a tailwind limit of approx 10 knots so you can be sure the wind will never be reported as more than that. It's a captains only landing in LCY and FLR for Cityjet.
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Challenging place FLR ... Then again as somebody else pointed out, Easterly ops at LCY with a 25knot crosswind, rain, and cloud down to the 390' minima, at night .... Now that is downright nasty.
Is it not one of 'those' places, you know the type where the conversation goes something like:
AIRCRAFT: wind check please
ATC: 230/12G22
AIRCRAFT: that's out of our limits, request the circle to land on XX
ATC: what are your limits
AIRCRAFT: tail wind of 10KTS
ATC: ok, wind 230 at 10, you're cleared to land
AIRCRAFT: Um, OK.........
.
AIRCRAFT: wind check please
ATC: 230/12G22
AIRCRAFT: that's out of our limits, request the circle to land on XX
ATC: what are your limits
AIRCRAFT: tail wind of 10KTS
ATC: ok, wind 230 at 10, you're cleared to land
AIRCRAFT: Um, OK.........
.
ATC reporting false W/V seems incredulous to me. In the event of an accident they'd be hung out to dry after the AIB have analysed the recorded W/V data in the Tower. In Italy they'll be in prison for sure.
Not to mention liable for civil suits from the employer for reputational damage, the airline for damage to aircraft, the crew and pax for injuries, emotional damage etc. Mad
"ATC reporting false W/V seems incredulous to me. In the event of an accident they'd be hung out to dry after the AIB have analysed the recorded W/V data in the Tower. In Italy they'll be in prison for sure. "
Italians can't even get Berlusconi into jail!
Italians can't even get Berlusconi into jail!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
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Italians can't even get Berlusconi into jail!
IFATCA press release - Cagliari crash
Telegraph article on 3 controllers sentenced after Linate
I remember your incident, Ciderman. I think I was there the next day. Happy days!
It may seem incredible to you, but it does go on. Ask anyone who flies regularly in and out of one way Italian airports, or airports where wet runway crosswind limits apply like ORK or LDY mentioned above.
For all I know they are reporting at the exact second their devices measure the wind on limits and ignore exceedences, or the anemometer may be creatively placed, but I have several years of personal experience of incorrectly reported winds operating out of a restrictive Italian airport.
For all I know they are reporting at the exact second their devices measure the wind on limits and ignore exceedences, or the anemometer may be creatively placed, but I have several years of personal experience of incorrectly reported winds operating out of a restrictive Italian airport.
Well, I flew the 146 into FLR for many years and don't recall their ATC ever being creative with W/V info. I now fly the A320 regularly into FNC which is subject to strict W/V limitations based on the 2 minute mean (as well as cloud ceiling). Never doubted the accuracy of FNC ATC reported W/V 
FNC is rather critical though - I've never been in but have read enough to know there's no margin for that kind of stuff.
However, somewhere like CIA where they hate using runway 33 as it causes all manner of bother an ATC reported 5-10 knot tailwind compared to calculated ground speed short final and the rather obvious visual evidence of the windsock suggest the ATC reported wind is not substantially accurate.
However, somewhere like CIA where they hate using runway 33 as it causes all manner of bother an ATC reported 5-10 knot tailwind compared to calculated ground speed short final and the rather obvious visual evidence of the windsock suggest the ATC reported wind is not substantially accurate.
