Strife at BAC
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Just to clarify the above post by Smokie, a company cannot bond you for something it has not provided. If, for example, you turn up with a valid type rating and simply need an OPC or LPC to get back on line, a company can't then bond you for a type rating it hasn't provided- that is illegal.
On the other hand, if the company in question deems your ability or previous training to be inadequate, it may want to re-train you, and that is something they can obviously bond you for. The point is, they have to be able to point to an expenditure on their part in order to enforce a bond- which has to be reasonable.
Also, some companies bond for initial checks and/or LPC/OPC, annoying as this may be it doesn't usually represent a lot of cash.
Finally, I am very much against the practice of selling type ratings, or, for that matter, bonds. However, the practice is becoming more widespread, and what it really represents is an attempt to control costs and reduce training risk. This is a perfectly reasonable business practice and does not imply the operator is somehow "fly by night", and it also says precisely nothing about a companies cash situation- is Ryanair cash-strapped? Don't think so, and they make you pay for everything!!
On the other hand, if the company in question deems your ability or previous training to be inadequate, it may want to re-train you, and that is something they can obviously bond you for. The point is, they have to be able to point to an expenditure on their part in order to enforce a bond- which has to be reasonable.
Also, some companies bond for initial checks and/or LPC/OPC, annoying as this may be it doesn't usually represent a lot of cash.
Finally, I am very much against the practice of selling type ratings, or, for that matter, bonds. However, the practice is becoming more widespread, and what it really represents is an attempt to control costs and reduce training risk. This is a perfectly reasonable business practice and does not imply the operator is somehow "fly by night", and it also says precisely nothing about a companies cash situation- is Ryanair cash-strapped? Don't think so, and they make you pay for everything!!
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For the record with regards my situation way back then. I sat on the jump seat to observe a "Base Check/ IR renewal", as it was called then, took my turn and was signed off and started a weeks line training the next day. I was still bonded though.
Bit cheeky if you ask me !
However on a positive note when I did the Jet conversion course
18 months later they forgot to bond me, swings and roundabouts
I suppose.
Bit cheeky if you ask me !
However on a positive note when I did the Jet conversion course
18 months later they forgot to bond me, swings and roundabouts
I suppose.
Raw Data:
I'm sorry but I can't get round your logic. You reckon that you would rather pay for a type-rating than be bonded so that you can leave whenever you like.
Let us suppose that the cost is £12000. Let us also assume that you work for that company for 1 year and then decide to move on. You have now lost £12000.
Your friend agrees to a bond which is to be amortized over a 3 year period. He also leaves after one year and therefore only has to repay the outstanding bond of £8000.
Both of you have been payed exactly the same salary so who has lost £4000?
By the way, I had a beer with an old mate the other night who has recently retired as Flight Ops Director of a fairly large UK airline. He has never hired anyone on the strength of them already having a type-rating. He would rather have the right chap and train him.
I have three other mates who are or were recently FODs so I must ask them when next we meet.
I'm sorry but I can't get round your logic. You reckon that you would rather pay for a type-rating than be bonded so that you can leave whenever you like.
Let us suppose that the cost is £12000. Let us also assume that you work for that company for 1 year and then decide to move on. You have now lost £12000.
Your friend agrees to a bond which is to be amortized over a 3 year period. He also leaves after one year and therefore only has to repay the outstanding bond of £8000.
Both of you have been payed exactly the same salary so who has lost £4000?
By the way, I had a beer with an old mate the other night who has recently retired as Flight Ops Director of a fairly large UK airline. He has never hired anyone on the strength of them already having a type-rating. He would rather have the right chap and train him.
I have three other mates who are or were recently FODs so I must ask them when next we meet.
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Well Guys BAC don't seem to be in a hurry to get my money.I just got a no thank you letter this morning.Things are so bad I can't even get an interview, even if I'm willing to pay for my type rating.
Now that I've got the moan over with STUFF them I think they were just testing the water anyway, and this self-sponsered course was never really happening.Funny how one can become bitter after 60 rejection letters, and I've got 700 hours with 200 multi.
Now that I've got the moan over with STUFF them I think they were just testing the water anyway, and this self-sponsered course was never really happening.Funny how one can become bitter after 60 rejection letters, and I've got 700 hours with 200 multi.
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JW411:
Fairly simple.
If you buy the type rating, the money is spent (and being paid back). If you take the bond, the problem a lot of people have is that they become trapped by an inability to pay the bond (usually due to a combination of lowish F/O salary, wife, kids, mortgage). They are then stuck. Airlines know this, which is why they use bonding- most bonded pilots stay for most of the bond period. Although the stated aim of a bond is to recoup training costs, the real reason is to retain staff. My point wasn't who pays more, simply the different paths and their advantages/disadvantages. I wouldn't personally prefer one over the other, they are both onerous- but here to stay.
Buying a type rating and then using that to help you find employment is the sheerest folly, in Europe at any rate. It may work with some of the out-dated turboprops, but most jet operators will want to train you themselves- rather than spend time getting you up to speed with their SOPs. I completely agree with your retired FOD friend.
However, paying for a type rating with an employer makes a lot more sense, and I go back to my point about Ryanair- they don't seem to have any problem filling slots. I would be fascinated to know how many they chop from conversion courses, though.
Smokie:
Quite right, very cheeky indeed!
Fairly simple.
If you buy the type rating, the money is spent (and being paid back). If you take the bond, the problem a lot of people have is that they become trapped by an inability to pay the bond (usually due to a combination of lowish F/O salary, wife, kids, mortgage). They are then stuck. Airlines know this, which is why they use bonding- most bonded pilots stay for most of the bond period. Although the stated aim of a bond is to recoup training costs, the real reason is to retain staff. My point wasn't who pays more, simply the different paths and their advantages/disadvantages. I wouldn't personally prefer one over the other, they are both onerous- but here to stay.
Buying a type rating and then using that to help you find employment is the sheerest folly, in Europe at any rate. It may work with some of the out-dated turboprops, but most jet operators will want to train you themselves- rather than spend time getting you up to speed with their SOPs. I completely agree with your retired FOD friend.
However, paying for a type rating with an employer makes a lot more sense, and I go back to my point about Ryanair- they don't seem to have any problem filling slots. I would be fascinated to know how many they chop from conversion courses, though.
Smokie:
Quite right, very cheeky indeed!
Thread Starter
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Well crikey bobs, you go away for a day or so and things just take off.
Whilst I am extreamly happy for people to debate the whole pay for/bonding process on this thread (a shameful practice in my opinion) please continue. Bonding for a sensible amount over two/three years (ie 8-10 thousand for a turbo prop, 15 for a large jet) is just about bearable. Paying for a rating is I think is a no no. Not only have you just put in £XX,000 for licence/IR, Mcc etc. But then to fork out a further £XX,000 takes the p***.
PLease if anyone could confirm any of the other details in the original post I would be most grateful.
Let battle commence.
Whilst I am extreamly happy for people to debate the whole pay for/bonding process on this thread (a shameful practice in my opinion) please continue. Bonding for a sensible amount over two/three years (ie 8-10 thousand for a turbo prop, 15 for a large jet) is just about bearable. Paying for a rating is I think is a no no. Not only have you just put in £XX,000 for licence/IR, Mcc etc. But then to fork out a further £XX,000 takes the p***.
PLease if anyone could confirm any of the other details in the original post I would be most grateful.
Let battle commence.
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The logic is perfectly sound, as it does not consider the needs of only one specific individual.
Also, I never said that one was preferable to the other- they are simply options.
Some have the money to pay upfront, get the job, and be able to move on whenever they like. Others don't, and can therefore be trapped by a bond.
It all comes down to your individual circumstances. Horses for courses, and all that. If you only consider career advancement, buying a type rating can either be very good (as it was for quite a few 757 drivers a few years ago) or very bad (if you got sucked into the BMI "type rating with a job at the end... er ... maybe" scam of the mid-nineties).
I am completely against paying for type ratings, and bonds in all their forms. Other industries train people to do the job, spending tens of thousands on them, and never even the hint of a bond. So it should be in our business.
However, I also recognise the economic realities- which means that bonds are probably here to stay (subject to a possible EU legal challenge), and that type ratings will always sell whilst there are those rich enough (or with daddies rich enough) to pay for them.
And that, folks, is the way the world is. Choose your individual morality, and take your stand accordingly.
Also, I never said that one was preferable to the other- they are simply options.
Some have the money to pay upfront, get the job, and be able to move on whenever they like. Others don't, and can therefore be trapped by a bond.
It all comes down to your individual circumstances. Horses for courses, and all that. If you only consider career advancement, buying a type rating can either be very good (as it was for quite a few 757 drivers a few years ago) or very bad (if you got sucked into the BMI "type rating with a job at the end... er ... maybe" scam of the mid-nineties).
I am completely against paying for type ratings, and bonds in all their forms. Other industries train people to do the job, spending tens of thousands on them, and never even the hint of a bond. So it should be in our business.
However, I also recognise the economic realities- which means that bonds are probably here to stay (subject to a possible EU legal challenge), and that type ratings will always sell whilst there are those rich enough (or with daddies rich enough) to pay for them.
And that, folks, is the way the world is. Choose your individual morality, and take your stand accordingly.
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I would just like to concur with some of the previous contributors about the dangers of going to turboprop outfits and staying on when others go to jets. I know the world is v. depressing right now on the job front, but it will undoubtedly change for the better within a year from now.
I am one of those who took the first job that came along (as you do) and was exceedingly grateful to fly night freight with a turboprop outfit. I subsequently went to a jet company, got kicked out 6 months later when it went bust and then went back to flying turboprops. I ended up as a line training captain with the last company and really enjoyed it - so much so that I never really bothered to get the finger out to apply for other jobs. Eventually I did, and I now fly A320/1s for a great company but as a very junior FO - but still earning more than I did as a turboprop Training Captain. I will have to wait several years to get a sniff of a command despite my past experience because we are a seniority-based company. What I discovered on getting here was a real revelation, as there are loads of pilots who were much smarter than me and pushed all the right doors when they had 200-1000 hours. They got in early and have just sat there gaining jet experience and slowly moving up the list. All credit to them, and they are all about to reap the benefits by becoming Captains on minimum hours (3500-4000).
The moral of the story is this - do not waste one minute more than you have to do with turboprop companies because for the last few years there have been loads of very low-hour, young lads/lasses out there who have been creeping in the back door at big jet companies and getting that vital jet time plus seniority within their company. I do not grudge one of them their success as they had a lot more nouse about them than I did, but it is proving to be a very costly error on my part.
I am one of those who took the first job that came along (as you do) and was exceedingly grateful to fly night freight with a turboprop outfit. I subsequently went to a jet company, got kicked out 6 months later when it went bust and then went back to flying turboprops. I ended up as a line training captain with the last company and really enjoyed it - so much so that I never really bothered to get the finger out to apply for other jobs. Eventually I did, and I now fly A320/1s for a great company but as a very junior FO - but still earning more than I did as a turboprop Training Captain. I will have to wait several years to get a sniff of a command despite my past experience because we are a seniority-based company. What I discovered on getting here was a real revelation, as there are loads of pilots who were much smarter than me and pushed all the right doors when they had 200-1000 hours. They got in early and have just sat there gaining jet experience and slowly moving up the list. All credit to them, and they are all about to reap the benefits by becoming Captains on minimum hours (3500-4000).
The moral of the story is this - do not waste one minute more than you have to do with turboprop companies because for the last few years there have been loads of very low-hour, young lads/lasses out there who have been creeping in the back door at big jet companies and getting that vital jet time plus seniority within their company. I do not grudge one of them their success as they had a lot more nouse about them than I did, but it is proving to be a very costly error on my part.
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To all those out there who are considering paying for type ratings at BAC, or any other outfit. Listen to those that have been around the block and speak from experience.
DON’T DO IT
If you are desperate for your first job then I doubt very much you are thinking clearly. Don’t have a go at those that are only trying to offer very sound advice.
DON’T DO IT
If you are desperate for your first job then I doubt very much you are thinking clearly. Don’t have a go at those that are only trying to offer very sound advice.
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Back to the subject of the original post, has anyone had a positive response from BAC rescently or regarding their F27 course?
Unlike some airlines, at least they seemed to be offering a guaranteed job at the end of it, not just a rating.
Unlike some airlines, at least they seemed to be offering a guaranteed job at the end of it, not just a rating.
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The contracts are only for six months (possibly re-newable) and the salaries are less than what they pay their existing crew.
So basically, you will paying BAC for the previlage of working for them!!
So basically, you will paying BAC for the previlage of working for them!!
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I did work for BAC for some years (didnt pay to get in) and enjoyed it.
But talking to some friends of mine ,the company has changed a lot and some people are ready to throw in the towel and do something else.
What is a shame because it was a nice friendly setup.
Good luck to all my fliends at BAC.
Neil.
But talking to some friends of mine ,the company has changed a lot and some people are ready to throw in the towel and do something else.
What is a shame because it was a nice friendly setup.
Good luck to all my fliends at BAC.
Neil.
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G-OOFY, you just asked for replies to your original question - fair point! I posted on 25th and 27th June, in which I answer all your points. The only change is that somebody ( BAC MGMNT?) said that all Captains now appropriately remunerated - well, the Shed F/O who was put in LHS on F/O pay may well have got that sorted by now - otherwise, I believe I have answered your points. On the pay and bonus front, as I said, sounds about right
Please advise if you have any other Q's
Please advise if you have any other Q's
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I think NSF has it exactly right. It all depends on what you want from life. As a late starter, who qualified in time for the last recession, it took me 4 years to crack ANY job where I didn't have to buy a type rating. It meant another 4 years before I was able to get into a jet job, and again start at the bottom. I also look at my younger colleagagues who commands in min time, and the best of luck to them. Do what's right for your circumstances, only you can decide that, but do remember what your goals are. And do make sure you enjoy yourself along the way. Any job is what you make it. And if it aint right or unsafe then walk and sort the paperwork later.
Footnote for RawData. The last time I spoke to your managers, they wanted a full conversion course and bond, if I was to join, despite 1000 PIC plus Line Trainer and last flown 8 months previously for one of your new turboprops and 800 hours PIC and last flown 2 years previous for the other. I declined.
Footnote for RawData. The last time I spoke to your managers, they wanted a full conversion course and bond, if I was to join, despite 1000 PIC plus Line Trainer and last flown 8 months previously for one of your new turboprops and 800 hours PIC and last flown 2 years previous for the other. I declined.
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nubboy
Your post is a little unclear, are you saying you are Q400 rated and they still wanted to bond you? It is unclear what you had the 1000 PIC and 800 PIC on.
If not, you would have to do the course just like everybody else.
Two years off type is in any case usually a good reason to insist on a course. We as a company have had too many problems over the years with folk coming in type-rated who needed to be re-taught everything.
Whatever the case, what you are really seeing is the law of supply and demand. We have plenty of pilots, what shortage there is seems to be mostly on the jet fleets. We are currently taking Cabair cadets to fill some of those holes, and promoting internally to fill jet commands. When there is a surplus of crews, requirements go up, when there is a shortage, they go down.
And finally, a general comment- we see on this thread a little of the old PPRuNe wannabes mindset- some people seem to think that they somehow deserve a job and that companies should ease their path. Nothing could be further from the truth. You get ahead in aviation by 1) being good, 2) being dedicated and 3) doing everything in your power to increase your experience and skill level. Even if you do all that, the fact is that the cyclical nature of aviation means some very good people will wait a long time for their first job.
Aviation is a business, so of course airlines will take advantage of the times and adjust their hiring policy to suit. Some take all the advantage they can, by offering to allow you to buy a type rating (of dubious value) with the carrot of a job at the end. Some have even been known to tailor their course pass rate to match their crewing requirement- tough if you fail the course, which is a stigma that will follow you round in aviation circles.
That is the way the world is, nobody is likely to do you any favours, it is up to YOU to make yourself as employable as possible. This can be particularly hard if you are a "mature student" as there a plenty of very sharp 20 year olds looking for jobs.
Not wishing to sound downbeat, just trying to get a bit of reality in there amongst all the wannabe angst. Or maybe it's because I'm on an early in the morning...
Your post is a little unclear, are you saying you are Q400 rated and they still wanted to bond you? It is unclear what you had the 1000 PIC and 800 PIC on.
If not, you would have to do the course just like everybody else.
Two years off type is in any case usually a good reason to insist on a course. We as a company have had too many problems over the years with folk coming in type-rated who needed to be re-taught everything.
Whatever the case, what you are really seeing is the law of supply and demand. We have plenty of pilots, what shortage there is seems to be mostly on the jet fleets. We are currently taking Cabair cadets to fill some of those holes, and promoting internally to fill jet commands. When there is a surplus of crews, requirements go up, when there is a shortage, they go down.
And finally, a general comment- we see on this thread a little of the old PPRuNe wannabes mindset- some people seem to think that they somehow deserve a job and that companies should ease their path. Nothing could be further from the truth. You get ahead in aviation by 1) being good, 2) being dedicated and 3) doing everything in your power to increase your experience and skill level. Even if you do all that, the fact is that the cyclical nature of aviation means some very good people will wait a long time for their first job.
Aviation is a business, so of course airlines will take advantage of the times and adjust their hiring policy to suit. Some take all the advantage they can, by offering to allow you to buy a type rating (of dubious value) with the carrot of a job at the end. Some have even been known to tailor their course pass rate to match their crewing requirement- tough if you fail the course, which is a stigma that will follow you round in aviation circles.
That is the way the world is, nobody is likely to do you any favours, it is up to YOU to make yourself as employable as possible. This can be particularly hard if you are a "mature student" as there a plenty of very sharp 20 year olds looking for jobs.
Not wishing to sound downbeat, just trying to get a bit of reality in there amongst all the wannabe angst. Or maybe it's because I'm on an early in the morning...
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Quite a few of us instructors at my flying club applied for the recent BAC self sponsership type rating. We all have between 1200-2000 hours and half of us have full UK atpl's (i.e. we recently unfroze them) and we were all turned down. Seems rather strange. "can I give you £11,000 for a typerating and job?" answer "No, sorry"
Mant theories as to why no positive response. One of those theories being that there was no job available. Perhaps they were just testing the water, and maybe even using the results as leverage against their own pilots who don't want to move up to scotland.
Anybody any ideas, and is there anybody out there who actually got a positive response?
Mant theories as to why no positive response. One of those theories being that there was no job available. Perhaps they were just testing the water, and maybe even using the results as leverage against their own pilots who don't want to move up to scotland.
Anybody any ideas, and is there anybody out there who actually got a positive response?
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Tom,
I seem to recall that Streamline Aviation have been charging for type ratings for years now and are they going down tube as well?
Just another way of making money for the BAC empire!!
I seem to recall that Streamline Aviation have been charging for type ratings for years now and are they going down tube as well?
Just another way of making money for the BAC empire!!
