Klm & Salisbury Plain?
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Klm & Salisbury Plain?
Happened to read in the "Sun" that a recent KLM flight was cleared to FL200 over Salisbury Plain, whilst the MOD were firing off live rounds????
Anyone else heard this story, or is it just more journalist hype & C**P?
C.N.
Anyone else heard this story, or is it just more journalist hype & C**P?
C.N.
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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When I clear a/c on a direct route that take them outside CAS I always add "at your discretion".
I've never had a direct route turned down(funny old thing) but in the event of some thing like this happening where does the buck stop?
Roger
I've never had a direct route turned down(funny old thing) but in the event of some thing like this happening where does the buck stop?
Roger
roger - But how many people cleared 'at your discretion' understand what they've let themselves in for? It might be a CMA thing to have on your tape, but unless you've given sufficient reasonable warning of the risks posed by that 'discretion', you could perhaps be held as partly responsible in any subsequent incident or accident.
As an example, an aircraft was operating under a radar service and the commander wanted to descend to VMC. ATC cleared him to safety altitude and then 'lower at your discretion'. The commander wrongly believed that this meant that there was no known traffic confliction, continued his descent - and nearly flew into the obstacle ahead of him which he hadn't been warned about! I explained the error of his ways to him when he told me about the incident (in 1998) - but perhaps ATC could have given him some warning about the risks he faced should he descend at the 'discretion' they'd referred to?
BTW - 'Port Stanley' does not have a runway! Stanley Airport does though.
As an example, an aircraft was operating under a radar service and the commander wanted to descend to VMC. ATC cleared him to safety altitude and then 'lower at your discretion'. The commander wrongly believed that this meant that there was no known traffic confliction, continued his descent - and nearly flew into the obstacle ahead of him which he hadn't been warned about! I explained the error of his ways to him when he told me about the incident (in 1998) - but perhaps ATC could have given him some warning about the risks he faced should he descend at the 'discretion' they'd referred to?
BTW - 'Port Stanley' does not have a runway! Stanley Airport does though.
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Jun 2002 at 22:18.
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I think that two things would be important in an incident like this;
1. Clear, correct and unambigious use of "Radar Service Terminated"; and
2. Flight Information Service with regard to known activities which present a hazard to navigation i.e. the controller would know about danger area activity in his/her sector and thus has an obligation under FIS to inform the pilot of such activity. (same goes for SIGMETS and other things in the list.
DFC
1. Clear, correct and unambigious use of "Radar Service Terminated"; and
2. Flight Information Service with regard to known activities which present a hazard to navigation i.e. the controller would know about danger area activity in his/her sector and thus has an obligation under FIS to inform the pilot of such activity. (same goes for SIGMETS and other things in the list.
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Beagle
for instance, an a/c routing Sam to EGTE below FL200 will leave CAS about 10 nm west of EGHH. I will say to the a/c "exeter will accept you in the descent to FL50, you're cleared to leave CAS in the descent I have no known traffic to affect"(if this is the case)
Now a couple of points...
I know nothing about a/c not displaying mode c or a,
If traffic is displaying a squawk it may not carry any mode c,
(I thought out there it was see and be seen)
I don't know if there are any obstacles in the way, the ac has left my sector and CAS. Isn't it down to the pilot?
If I knew what you are expecting from me it would be a great help and I could apply that at work and perhaps you'll find out what we expect from you.
99% of the airspace I work is class A/B and normally quite busy, if an a/c is leaving CAS as soon as it crosses the line you'll hear
"you've left CAS, radar controlled service terminated squawk 7000 contact XXXX bye bye"(good luck?!!!)
Let me know what you think
for instance, an a/c routing Sam to EGTE below FL200 will leave CAS about 10 nm west of EGHH. I will say to the a/c "exeter will accept you in the descent to FL50, you're cleared to leave CAS in the descent I have no known traffic to affect"(if this is the case)
Now a couple of points...
I know nothing about a/c not displaying mode c or a,
If traffic is displaying a squawk it may not carry any mode c,
(I thought out there it was see and be seen)
I don't know if there are any obstacles in the way, the ac has left my sector and CAS. Isn't it down to the pilot?
If I knew what you are expecting from me it would be a great help and I could apply that at work and perhaps you'll find out what we expect from you.
99% of the airspace I work is class A/B and normally quite busy, if an a/c is leaving CAS as soon as it crosses the line you'll hear
"you've left CAS, radar controlled service terminated squawk 7000 contact XXXX bye bye"(good luck?!!!)
Let me know what you think
