Change needed in North American ATC
I have said it before - ICAO needs teeth to enforce standardised regulations globally, meaning the Russians and Chinese fly in feet, the US drop inches of mercury, the Iranians, Russians and Chinese start measuring winds in knots and everybody starts talking comprehensibly. We, as aviation professionals, are all supposed to be on the same side!
http://www.pme.gov.sa/en/ICAO%20Refe.../an05_cons.pdf
Page 3-3, Table 3-4
Aren't we all supposed to use the Metric system and the alternative ones only on a temporary basis?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many US airport ground frequencies would get IMMEDIATELY overloaded if ground controller started giving out the endless conditional sequential taxi clearances during a normal, or heavy, traffic period.
Yeah, it works when there's hardly any traffic - "oh this works great! Why don't they do that in XYZ airport in the U.S.?" Add U.S. level of airport movement and it falls apart.
The difference in workload in the U.S. ATC system vs. the 'busy' European cities is almost night and day. A 'busy' period overseas is an easy day at work for U.S. based pilots. I can't pretend to know all the how's and why's but the operational pace is much easier overseas. Not saying the U.S. is perfect and the 'end all to be all'. Could it be fixed? I don't know.
Overseas they expect you to have read all the written procedures(P pages). The U.S. expects you to listen up to what guys ahead of you are getting and what you get assigned. Identifying flights ahead of you, and the clearances they get, helps you increase your situational awareness. Just sitting there as a sponge, without increasing your traffic situational awareness via TCAS and radio monitoring of what other flights are being assigned, isn't a good idea in the U.S.
Yeah, it works when there's hardly any traffic - "oh this works great! Why don't they do that in XYZ airport in the U.S.?" Add U.S. level of airport movement and it falls apart.
The difference in workload in the U.S. ATC system vs. the 'busy' European cities is almost night and day. A 'busy' period overseas is an easy day at work for U.S. based pilots. I can't pretend to know all the how's and why's but the operational pace is much easier overseas. Not saying the U.S. is perfect and the 'end all to be all'. Could it be fixed? I don't know.
Overseas they expect you to have read all the written procedures(P pages). The U.S. expects you to listen up to what guys ahead of you are getting and what you get assigned. Identifying flights ahead of you, and the clearances they get, helps you increase your situational awareness. Just sitting there as a sponge, without increasing your traffic situational awareness via TCAS and radio monitoring of what other flights are being assigned, isn't a good idea in the U.S.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I disagree - I can't see why it'd all fall apart just because a controller waits until an aircraft is number 1 on final and the preceding has either vacated or is sufficiently far down the runway for a clearance or "land after". There is no reason at all that several aircraft should share landing or take of clearances for the same runway.
As for the notion that US controllers expect a pilot to listen and know what all the other aircraft are doing, that is entirely the controller's job - they are the ones with surveillance radar and ground movement radar, and a seat and set of windows that aren't attached to a platform they're also controlling moving in three dimensions at a couple of hundred miles per hour... Good pilots will try to build an air picture of the traffic around them in easy conditions, but when the weather is bad or bits are falling off, or they're visiting a field with unduly complex procedures (ie most of the US) for the first time, their focus is going to be somewhat narrower.
As for the notion that US controllers expect a pilot to listen and know what all the other aircraft are doing, that is entirely the controller's job - they are the ones with surveillance radar and ground movement radar, and a seat and set of windows that aren't attached to a platform they're also controlling moving in three dimensions at a couple of hundred miles per hour... Good pilots will try to build an air picture of the traffic around them in easy conditions, but when the weather is bad or bits are falling off, or they're visiting a field with unduly complex procedures (ie most of the US) for the first time, their focus is going to be somewhat narrower.
Last edited by Aluminium shuffler; 6th Jan 2016 at 16:24.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: directly below the zenith
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by misd-agin
The difference in workload in the U.S. ATC system vs. the 'busy' European cities is almost night and day. A 'busy' period overseas is an easy day at work for U.S. based pilots.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, it works when there's hardly any traffic - "oh this works great! Why don't they do that in XYZ airport in the U.S.?" Add U.S. level of airport movement and it falls apart.
The difference in workload in the U.S. ATC system vs. the 'busy' European cities is almost night and day. A 'busy' period overseas is an easy day at work for U.S. based pilots.
As for 'hardly any traffic'. Heathrow has only two mainly single mode runways. If it were to operate 5 runways as Atlanta at the same runway acceptance rate it currently achieves on two with mandatory IFR then it would significantly surpass Atlanta's traffic. The local frequency would be just as unhurried as it is today.
Gatwick has one multi-mode runway if it were to operate 5 runways each with the same acceptance rate that it achieves on one mandatory IFR, then it would also far surpass Atlanta's acceptance rates.
The problem would be in the marshaling of all those aircraft and their ground handling. However, the frenetic verbal activity that can be heard at some airports working VFR would not be present.
With the new trajectory based precision navigation systems being developed the event driven VFR concepts may cease to be required.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite, Ian. LGW is ridiculously busy for a single runway, and the density of operations exceed that of just about anywhere else at peak times. It's unusual to get anything other than a land after, crossing 100-150', during peak times, but still you won't have two aircraft cleared to land at the same time. And there is far less RT confusion and repetition because the controllers speak clearer and slower, and use standard RTF. But obviously the LGW controllers are inferior because they're not American and they don't sound cool... 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: usa
Age: 37
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I replied to the title of the thread.
It's clearly a concern over the safety of air traffic separation in North America and comparisons were drawn to Frankfurt.
The salient point from my perspective is that controllers and pilots were together professionally in North America. My experience around the world has been that controllers and pilots resist load sharing much more frequently with ATC.
It's clearly a concern over the safety of air traffic separation in North America and comparisons were drawn to Frankfurt.
The salient point from my perspective is that controllers and pilots were together professionally in North America. My experience around the world has been that controllers and pilots resist load sharing much more frequently with ATC.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with Al shuffler on this.
My personal best on a single runway 'oop north', was 57 in an hour, one of my colleagues achieved 60, which is still the record, (I believe).
Landing clearances were always given when the R/W had been 'vacated', or a 'land-after' if it was safe to do so.
'Keep the pilots in the picture' was how we were taught. It was sometimes played extremely tight, but we received few complaints from the 'customers'.
My personal best on a single runway 'oop north', was 57 in an hour, one of my colleagues achieved 60, which is still the record, (I believe).
Landing clearances were always given when the R/W had been 'vacated', or a 'land-after' if it was safe to do so.
'Keep the pilots in the picture' was how we were taught. It was sometimes played extremely tight, but we received few complaints from the 'customers'.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GAPSTER
I mean no disrespect to flight crews. I was only pointing out that the stress load of ATC is constant while most flights require vigilance, the stress load is not as constant.
That, and 'walk a mile in the other person's shoes before saying what they should or should not be doing.
I mean no disrespect to flight crews. I was only pointing out that the stress load of ATC is constant while most flights require vigilance, the stress load is not as constant.
That, and 'walk a mile in the other person's shoes before saying what they should or should not be doing.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HANTS
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wrong....I've worked over thirty years in the London TMA,including TWR and APC at the two main airports.My stress level has never been 'constant'...I'd still be interested in your experience.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there an exchange plan where controllers from different countries can work in other country's air traffic control centers? Or I guess I should say at least observe.
I would imagine that a few day working in the New York City TRACON would open a few eyes for other countries controllers and the same with the London Center area control for US controllers.
I've flown in both, New York of course a lot more than London, but both have always impressed me with their professionalism.
Many other countries I flown in, which will go nameless, not so much.
I would imagine that a few day working in the New York City TRACON would open a few eyes for other countries controllers and the same with the London Center area control for US controllers.
I've flown in both, New York of course a lot more than London, but both have always impressed me with their professionalism.
Many other countries I flown in, which will go nameless, not so much.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before September 11th there was a programme of Familiarisation flights for London based ATC staff to the US and other destinations and these trips were normally combined with the opportunity to visit the local ATC facility as a liaison visit.
I suspect in this post Sept 11th age neither is possible which is a shame.
I suspect in this post Sept 11th age neither is possible which is a shame.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always amuses me how English/American pilots always single out UK/US ATC as the most professional. Does this stem from the fact that they are speaking in their (and your) mother tongue and therefore sound more "professional"? How about some votes for ATCOs from other nations who may speak with an accent but are equally as "professional" in the execution of their job? 
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have flown in many Spanish speaking countries and Asian speaking countries and have controllers, with the respective accents, be very understandable and very professional.
But I don't want to start a "good" country and "bad" country conflict.
This thread has seemed to have fallen into the same old UK vs. US nonsense, so that is why I posted New York/London.
Sorry, did not mean to insult anyone.
And yes, even many very professional French controllers.
But I don't want to start a "good" country and "bad" country conflict.
This thread has seemed to have fallen into the same old UK vs. US nonsense, so that is why I posted New York/London.
Sorry, did not mean to insult anyone.
And yes, even many very professional French controllers.
Wake up this morning in ZBAA, turn on the laptop...
And I decide to visit PPRuNE and come upon this thread and I simply had to LOL...
So some are complaining about the ATC system in the USA and how they are not ICAO “standard”…
Well a lot of places in the world are not ICAO “standard” including Europe it seems. However in my opinion there is NOT a better, more efficient and friendly ATC system in the world than the one found in the USA.
They will do their best to accommodate any reasonable demands, from direct routing to wrong way flight levels, to deviations for bad weather, to departure and arrival runway selections to get you on or off the ground as rapidly as possible while remaining safe in their operation.
Eurocontrol is a joke compared to the US ATC system. They can’t even start to think “outside the box”, they are in my opinion inefficient.
Two very recent examples on how inefficient Eurocontrol can be…
#1 - We were flying from southern Spain to LFPB. Both the departure and arrival airport as most of Europe on that day, was under VFR weather condition, actually the Paris area was severe clear. We were given a slot/departure delay of 2 hours by Eurocontrol because the ILS into LFPB was out of commission and this when there was a RNAV/GPS approach to that same runway available.
#2- We were scheduled to leave Zurich for Montreal at 17H00 local (with a Zurich airport slot for that time). We ask for start-up and Zurich advised us that Eurocontrol had just imposed us a slot for 18H30 local, a 90 minute delay for no apparent reason. Eurocontrol can override any airport's own slot system which is counter productive in my opinion. Why in this day and age, can they not communicate with each other and coordinate a departure slot and an airway/ATC slot.
How many aircrafts were going from Zurich or that general area of Europe to Montreal at that time? Furthermore, how many of them were climbing directly to FL430 (initial climb) in Europe's airspace and then fly on a random route across the Atlantic to Montreal? I cannot believe that ATC could not accommodate another aircraft for an on time departure, especially one that was above 99% of all aircrafts in their airspace.
In all my flying years, I have NEVER experienced this kind of nonsense in the USA (or the UK) from their ATC system unless it was severe weather or an emergency at a departure or arrival airport.
Are the Americans perfect? No they are not, but I can say the same of many other ATC systems in the rest of the world. There are far worst places in the world where I think safety issues need to be addressed before even thinking the US system is unsafe.
You folks can go on ranting all you want about the US ATC system because of their “non-compliance” to certain ICAO standards or the use of some slangs when they talk on the radio but I’m willing to give them a break because IMHO the rest of the world can’t even come close to their safe efficient ATC system.
BTW, I want to make this clear, I am not criticizing the individual controller here because most are highly professional in my opinion. I even spent 3 years flying out of Paris for a major feeder airline for Air France in the early 90s and thought the French controllers were very good. However I do question Eurocontrol's ability to manage its traffic.
End of my rant!
So some are complaining about the ATC system in the USA and how they are not ICAO “standard”…
Well a lot of places in the world are not ICAO “standard” including Europe it seems. However in my opinion there is NOT a better, more efficient and friendly ATC system in the world than the one found in the USA.
They will do their best to accommodate any reasonable demands, from direct routing to wrong way flight levels, to deviations for bad weather, to departure and arrival runway selections to get you on or off the ground as rapidly as possible while remaining safe in their operation.
Eurocontrol is a joke compared to the US ATC system. They can’t even start to think “outside the box”, they are in my opinion inefficient.
Two very recent examples on how inefficient Eurocontrol can be…
#1 - We were flying from southern Spain to LFPB. Both the departure and arrival airport as most of Europe on that day, was under VFR weather condition, actually the Paris area was severe clear. We were given a slot/departure delay of 2 hours by Eurocontrol because the ILS into LFPB was out of commission and this when there was a RNAV/GPS approach to that same runway available.
#2- We were scheduled to leave Zurich for Montreal at 17H00 local (with a Zurich airport slot for that time). We ask for start-up and Zurich advised us that Eurocontrol had just imposed us a slot for 18H30 local, a 90 minute delay for no apparent reason. Eurocontrol can override any airport's own slot system which is counter productive in my opinion. Why in this day and age, can they not communicate with each other and coordinate a departure slot and an airway/ATC slot.
How many aircrafts were going from Zurich or that general area of Europe to Montreal at that time? Furthermore, how many of them were climbing directly to FL430 (initial climb) in Europe's airspace and then fly on a random route across the Atlantic to Montreal? I cannot believe that ATC could not accommodate another aircraft for an on time departure, especially one that was above 99% of all aircrafts in their airspace.
In all my flying years, I have NEVER experienced this kind of nonsense in the USA (or the UK) from their ATC system unless it was severe weather or an emergency at a departure or arrival airport.
Are the Americans perfect? No they are not, but I can say the same of many other ATC systems in the rest of the world. There are far worst places in the world where I think safety issues need to be addressed before even thinking the US system is unsafe.
You folks can go on ranting all you want about the US ATC system because of their “non-compliance” to certain ICAO standards or the use of some slangs when they talk on the radio but I’m willing to give them a break because IMHO the rest of the world can’t even come close to their safe efficient ATC system.
BTW, I want to make this clear, I am not criticizing the individual controller here because most are highly professional in my opinion. I even spent 3 years flying out of Paris for a major feeder airline for Air France in the early 90s and thought the French controllers were very good. However I do question Eurocontrol's ability to manage its traffic.
End of my rant!
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 7th Jan 2016 at 20:40. Reason: editorial
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Devon
Age: 59
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of my EU mates (French/Germans) understand my English just fine, unless I speak too fast and is harder for them too follow, add an accent (scouse for example), then see the result.
Strange, the most recent accident I can come up that was directly attributable to ATC was nearly 15 years ago (2002). Knock on wood 
Oh, and it was in Europe (Germany).
Oh, and it was in Europe (Germany).
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto
Age: 57
Posts: 531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ZOOKER
My personal best on a single runway 'oop north', was 57 in an hour, one of my colleagues achieved 60, which is still the record, (I believe).
There are good controllers all over the world but their methods may vary due to local rules and restrictions which are invisible to the pilots.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aluminium shuffler - As for the notion that US controllers expect a pilot to listen and know what all the other aircraft are doing, that is entirely the controller's job - they are the ones with surveillance radar and ground movement radar, and a seat and set of windows that aren't attached to a platform they're also controlling moving in three dimensions at a couple of hundred miles per hour... Good pilots will try to build an air picture of the traffic around them in easy conditions, but when the weather is bad or bits are falling off, or they're visiting a field with unduly complex procedures (ie most of the US) for the first time, their focus is going to be somewhat narrower.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expect is the wrong word. Maybe saying "it benefits the pilot to listen to a/c ahead of their aircraft" would be better. It provides basic situational awareness benefits. TCAS has been a wonderful addition to a pilot's SA ability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expect is the wrong word. Maybe saying "it benefits the pilot to listen to a/c ahead of their aircraft" would be better. It provides basic situational awareness benefits. TCAS has been a wonderful addition to a pilot's SA ability.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LHR, LGW, Stansted is approx. 900,000 annual movements. I don't know the traffic at other local airports.
JFK, LGA, EWR, TEB, HPN, ISP, SWF is about 1,750,000 annual movements.
JFK/LGA/EWR are 18 nm apart. 1,170,000 movements. Add in TEB, overflown by EWR arrivals on base leg, and it's 1,340,000 movements.
The LA basin has over 3,000,000 movements.
JFK, LGA, EWR, TEB, HPN, ISP, SWF is about 1,750,000 annual movements.
JFK/LGA/EWR are 18 nm apart. 1,170,000 movements. Add in TEB, overflown by EWR arrivals on base leg, and it's 1,340,000 movements.
The LA basin has over 3,000,000 movements.
Last edited by misd-agin; 7th Jan 2016 at 02:53. Reason: local airports...