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Indonesian E195 out of RWY

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Indonesian E195 out of RWY

Old 21st Dec 2015, 16:57
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Indonesian E195 out of RWY

Welll...I start to think we have some real problems on those places...



http://avherald.com/h?article=49124baa&opt=0
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 18:08
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200 meters overrun. Rediculous. I wonder what their speed was at touchdown. (Or their mach number)
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Old 21st Dec 2015, 18:21
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Flapless?

The picture is a bit blurred but it looks like the flaps were not extended?
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 07:46
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Originally Posted by JanetFlight
I start to think we have some real problems on those places...
Only just starting to think that?
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 10:05
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I suppose it's to be assumed that the runway is ungrooved.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 10:06
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I may be mistaken but I think all are Indonesia.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 10:15
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How long is the runway?
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 10:17
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2500m, 60m stopway on 07, nothing on 25. Visibility was 500m at the time of the accident.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 10:24
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Originally Posted by Aviation Safety Network
The aircraft reportedly touched down about half way down the runway...
ASN Aircraft accident Embraer ERJ-195LR (ERJ-190-200LR) PK-KDC Kupang-El Tari Airport (KOE)

Pretty much explains the final outcome.

Last edited by wanabee777; 22nd Dec 2015 at 10:58.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 14:09
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I suggested in a very tongue-in-cheek way on another thread that all runways in this region should be lengthened to 12,000ft with TDZ lightning that is always on - green for the first 6000ft, then yellow for 3000ft
and finally red. Mandatory go-around if touchdown not achieved in green. I don't think this is tongue in cheek any more!!
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 14:39
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Another brilliant solution - as suggested by an "aviation consultant" on Accident: Kalstar E195 at Kupang on Dec 21st 2015, overran runway on landing is to have all planes land uphill:
"To prevent runway overruns, build runways on an incline. Landing uphill will slow down a landing plane right quick, no more runway overruns."
By golly! Why didn't I think of that?
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 14:46
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Hmm, just seen a carrier docu. What about a tailhook and a cable system?
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 14:50
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General rule of thumb is to touchdown no later than the first 1/3 of the runway or 3000 ft, whichever is less.

Standing water with a tailwind not withstanding.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 15:14
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Rule of thumb to land on first third of the runway? I'm afraid not old chap, the rule (of thumb)is to land in the touchdown zone and nowhere else. To do so invalidates the landing performance you have calculated. Those sorts of rules of thumb are fine for GA, but have no place In commercial environments on medium/heavy/super, jet ops.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 15:16
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Video of the flight crew leaving the aircraft ..

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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 15:20
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Maybe I should rephrase it.

Rule of thumb.

If you haven't touched down by the first third of the runway or 3000 ft (whichever is less), then go around.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 15:22
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@ D to A; the runway lights are coded red and white for the last 900m - I assume this is the same in Indonesia??
I am aware of these, but it seems Indonesian pilots are not

I am suggesting a more "in your face" system - i.e. the two sets of three lights every 30m or so that you see in the TDZ between the centreline and the two sides of the runway - turned up bright and going green, yellow and red, signifying "ok", "you really need to be touching down" and "GO AROUND! No IFS or BUTS!!"

Edit: My first post should have read green for the first 3000 ft, not 6000ft.

So it would be Green, 3000ft, Yellow 3000ft and finally red 6000ft. In therory no landing aircraft should be left with less than 6000ft of runway. Then you have got to get it into their heads that Flap 5 and VREF of 220kts in a 737 is not the best configuration for landing!
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 18:30
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Originally Posted by DirtyProp
Another brilliant solution - as suggested by an "aviation consultant" on Accident: Kalstar E195 at Kupang on Dec 21st 2015, overran runway on landing is to have all planes land uphill:
"To prevent runway overruns, build runways on an incline. Landing uphill will slow down a landing plane right quick, no more runway overruns."
By golly! Why didn't I think of that?
The same person then goes onto suggest an even more brilliant idea:

Alternatively, construct concrete strips circling the globe, one for each line of longitude. Because the length of these runways is infinite, no more overruns, ever; but it would be rather expensive.
The guy's a genius... at trolling. :-)
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 19:08
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No change there then.

"Maybe I should rephrase it.

Rule of thumb.

If you haven't touched down by the first third of the runway or 3000 ft (whichever is less), then go around".

Great rule of thumb but unfortunately to go around (or even bimble around for 10 minutes while the weather improves) is a serious loss of face for the majority of Indonesian pilots (IMHO of course). I flew extensively as SLF in Indonesia 30-odd years ago, mainly on Garuda but occasionally on the rather worryingly named SMAC airways and hot approaches and landings were the norm. I lost track of the number of times we floated down the runway watching the distance bars go by as the teenagers in the cockpit adjusted their sunglasses and fiddled with their racing driver style string-backed gloves. Eventually we'd hit the ground and find ourselves hanging in the straps as they desperately tried to stop it before we went off the end.

Until the 'face' thing is overcome or 'educated out' accidents such as this one, fortunately non-fatal in this case, will continue to occur.
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Old 22nd Dec 2015, 19:12
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another idea

I like ab's long-term solution, goes something like this:
Captain: "Hal, I am ready to land, now."
Hal: "Where, Captain?"
Captain: "At that nice airport in front of us, you know, out there off the nose."
Hal: "OK, Captain, just have another cup of coffee, and I will advise you when we are at the gate."
Captain: "OK, Hal."
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