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BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR

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BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR

Old 5th Nov 2015, 11:37
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
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sky9, this photo with door was discussed here earlier. It's suspicious but not real proof yet. Second photo - I doubt that such "leaf" can survive fall from 10 km undamaged and even not rotated around it's stalk.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 11:40
  #1082 (permalink)  
 
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Next to the hole, just left, there appears to be a loose fragement originating from the hole.
IDK, if it "originated" but point taken.

I make hmmm because it's the first shoot where I see hole which looks like it was done before or while plane was still on fire.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 11:48
  #1083 (permalink)  
 
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hole on right side

Kulverstukas, it looks like projectile originated from cargo bay.

BUT! inner part of edges aren't covered with soot. That puncture thus did not happen before impacting ground?

Last edited by Prada; 5th Nov 2015 at 12:07.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:25
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
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pax seats scorched?

on RT HD news at 1200 gmt

large clear video shows 2 seat rows that were found away from main wreckage

imho all the grey leather seat backs do very possibly look scorched (one outer and the middle seat looks burnt at the top) and are not covered in sand dust -
the lack of lower marks are characteristic maybe with someone sitting in the seats.
with most marks on the top and sides of seats except the outer seat which could a window or aisle which is very marked/burnt (empty or a child)

the seat cushions where still attached do not show the ''scorching''

some other seats i have seen were sadly blood stained but these were not scorched
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:30
  #1085 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know how this happened, but it strikes me that the HS broke at least at one point (don't know if it did broke at the other side also like at the left side or departed "only" in two pieces) and the VS is also lost, only the leading edge and the skin attached to the fuselage stay there (this point to vertical only acceleration/s, compare with flight 587). For me, the fuselage could not be badly damaged before, otherwise you don't have the leverage, also see engine pylon damage.
Edit: also someone pointed here to the long fuel line of the APU still there, that would probably not happen if the fuselage was compromised first.

Last edited by Mauersegler; 5th Nov 2015 at 12:40.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:33
  #1086 (permalink)  
 
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misfortune never comes alone



LED-SSH
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:43
  #1087 (permalink)  
 
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Tail section including fin and rear doors

Originally Posted by Mauersegler View Post
I don't know how happened, but it strikes me that the HS broke at least at one point (don't know if it did broke at the other side also like at the left side or departed "only" in two pieces) and the VS is also lost, only the leading edge and the skin attached to the fuselage stay there (this point to vertical only acceleration/s, compare with flight 587). For me, the fuselage could not be badly damaged before, otherwise you don't have the leverage, also see engine pylon damage.
I cant help seeing that clean break across the top of rear fuselage former (or construction joint) looks like a fatigue zip failure'
If this had ailowed flex of the whole tail ,what would sudden change in geometry of screw jack and internal struts do to angle of HS?
Overload??
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:49
  #1088 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A0283 View Post
Kulver that hole was pointed out by another poster a bit earlier in the thread as far as i know.

Next to the hole, just left, there appears to be a loose fragement originating from the hole. If so, then this would not comply with a high speed object punching through. It would suggest either a component pushed through on impact or a hole made by recovery teams to move panels.

I have it on my possible but as yet low probability 'list'.

Another explanation could be that it was one of the 'leaves' folded open, and this being one leaf breaking off on impact.

Is indeed the first one that could point to an inward-out punch. If it was outside-in, then, depending on the location of the panel, it could also be debris impact during the breakup sequence.

if you look at this image you will see that the Flapped out bit has a perfect circular impression "stamped" in it before it tore away from skin. Dut to its location below a window I suggest that was cause by the impact of a seat rail.

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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:49
  #1089 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ivor Fynn View Post
FE Hoppy,

I believe you are incorrect the photo that @mitrosft eludes to is one of the best indicators to me of an explosion of some variety at the rear of the aircraft. They are clearly puncture marks caused by some form of shrapnel.

Ivor
What would the difference be between puncture marks made by pieces of cabin and detritus propelled by a bomb and puncture marks made by pieces of cabin and detritus propelled by a 450Kt air flow?

Can you tell that from a picture?

It is known from the pieces that the aircraft broke its back probably due to a high negative g bunt. A similar accident in an RAF aircraft that lost its tail led to more than minus 12 g. The break of the 321 fuselage just aft of the wings exposed the internal part of the rear fuselage to pieces of airframe, aircraft skin and other cabin detritus at more than 400kts. I put it to you that the damage would not be significantly different to a small bomb it may in fact be more extensive.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:50
  #1090 (permalink)  
 
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"If this had ailowed flex of the whole tail ,what would sudden change in geometry of screw jack and internal struts do to angle of HS?"

Initially HS load would change from download to upload. Upload intensity would increase as fuselage crack widened.

It is interesting to note the jackscrew is still in the tail, it is visible in the photos several pages back, but no sign at all of any HS pieces still on tail.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:54
  #1091 (permalink)  
 
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If this was indeed a deliberate act (explosive device) and target specific (Russians) then why select Metrojet? No disrespect intended but there are more high-profile Russian carriers operating into SSH with larger equipment? I guess if this was the case it's mission accomplished for the terrorist regardless.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:56
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
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Passenger seating list published...

here
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 12:59
  #1093 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prada View Post
Kulverstukas, it looks like projectile originated from cargo bay.

BUT! inner part of edges aren't covered with soot. That puncture thus did not happen before impacting ground?

from what I can see neither is the underside of the displaced piece, almost certainly ground impact damage
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:00
  #1094 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Flightmech View Post
If this was indeed a deliberate act (explosive device) and target specific (Russians) then why select Metrojet? No disrespect intended but there are more high-profile Russian carriers operating into SSH with larger equipment? I guess if this was the case it's mission accomplished for the terrorist regardless.
Opportunity?
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:01
  #1095 (permalink)  
 
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"The data of the flight data recorder (FDR) have been copied and handed to the investigating commission for deciphering, processing and analysing"

MOSCOW, November 4. /TASS/. The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) of the Russian A321 plane that came down in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula on Saturday has been seriously damaged while the data from the flight data recorder have been copied and handed to the commission investigating the crash, the Interstate Aviation Committee said on Wednesday.

"The cockpit voice recorder has suffered serious mechanical damage," the committee said. "Now in Egypt, the preparatory work with participation of experts of the IAC and France’s BEA [the Bureau of Enquiry and Analysis for civil aviation safety] is being done to copy the recorded information, taking all possible precautionary measures."

"The data of the flight data recorder (FDR) have been copied and handed to the investigating commission for deciphering, processing and analysing," IAC said.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:09
  #1096 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cloudhawke View Post
Is there a way to sabotage the aircraft so that the HS eventually departed, without using an explosive device?
It is not immediate and a little uncontrolled, but allowing a hydraulic fluid leak into the VS and HS structures to cause corrosion over a year or so might result in sufficient weakness for there to be an in-flight break up
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:19
  #1097 (permalink)  
 
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Surely if this event was caused by explosives the investigating authorities would know by now....
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:22
  #1098 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps someone can shed some light on this discrepancy

Hi, new here and have been following this thread since the beginning. there is a discrepancy with info posted I have trouble with.

Two days ago:

"Before the moment of the disappearance of the aircraft from radar screens, sounds are recorded which are not characteristic of a normal flight," Interfax quoted an unnamed security source in Cairo as saying.

Today:

"The cockpit voice recorder has suffered serious mechanical damage," the committee said. "Now in Egypt, the preparatory work with participation of experts of the IAC and France’s BEA [the Bureau of Enquiry and Analysis for civil aviation safety] is being done to copy the recorded information, taking all possible precautionary measures."

The latter makes me wonder what was heard, provided the former info is correct. Or is it another case of "misinformation" attributable to an "unnamed source"?
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:32
  #1099 (permalink)  
 
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May I ask if anything concrete has come out of the investigation yet?
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 13:32
  #1100 (permalink)  
 
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it appears they are, the announcements today from both Russia and Egypt say no evidence of explosives.
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