Latest On Age 60-plus
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Latest On Age 60-plus
Posted to their Web site June 13, a new petition by 10 members of the Professional Pilots Federation (PPF) seeks their exemption from the age-60 mandatory retirement rule. The petition says the rule was a favor to American Airlines in 1959 to get older pilots out of the cockpit, not a safety move. The PPF's lengthy petition includes a February 5, 1959, letter from C.R. Smith, the then-CEO of American, to then-FAA Administrator Gen. Elwood Quesada. The PPF claims the two were longtime friends when Smith told Quesada that the pilots' association was balking at the company's mandatory retirement age of 60 and suggested the FAA make it law. The FAA set the age at 60 about 10 months later, according to the petition.
http://www.ppf.org/newpetition.htm
http://www.ppf.org/newpetition.htm
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http://www.ppf.org/newpetition.htm
Why can't these old people just 'accept' retirement gracefully
It gives the young person an opportunity to learn and 'acquire' the necessary skills The dead man's shoes philosophy should be eradicated allowing a natural flow of employment in the industry
Why can't these old people just 'accept' retirement gracefully
It gives the young person an opportunity to learn and 'acquire' the necessary skills The dead man's shoes philosophy should be eradicated allowing a natural flow of employment in the industry
Last edited by Engineer; 17th Jun 2002 at 09:47.
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Engineer- perhaps one of the skills you should acquire is spelling! Try 'accept' and 'acquire' for a start! If, according to your moniker, you are an Engineer, why do you feel the necessity to comment and express an opinion about pilot employment in a Professional Pilots Forum?
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Simple, Engineer. One word: experience. I'd rather fly with a co-jo that's 65, in good health and has seen and done it all than some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough. And yes, before you raise the issue of training, I have been in a situation working for a major airline where the FO simply cracked under the strain and I had to do everything myself - this guy could barely handle the radio. Needless to say, he received his marching orders very quickly after that.
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CMB
How do you know he is medically fit and fully alert. If so why not rise the age to seventy
Reference your incident with the FO (411a must be lurking somewhere
)
maybe he would benefit from this link
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56307
Accept that when your time is up and go quietly instead of kicking and screaming. It is more professional. Take solace from the fact that you are giving an opportunity to a younger person to receive the benefits that were bestowed on you.
(corrected to appease Notso Fantastic requirement for spelling retraining was necessary and carried out)
How do you know he is medically fit and fully alert. If so why not rise the age to seventy
Reference your incident with the FO (411a must be lurking somewhere
)maybe he would benefit from this link
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56307
Accept that when your time is up and go quietly instead of kicking and screaming. It is more professional. Take solace from the fact that you are giving an opportunity to a younger person to receive the benefits that were bestowed on you.
(corrected to appease Notso Fantastic requirement for spelling retraining was necessary and carried out)
Last edited by Engineer; 17th Jun 2002 at 09:49.
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The Age was 65!!!!
Well Engineer, how about you accepting that the retirement age was 65, (55 in certain companies, dictated by themselves and their pension schemes) and that it was reduced to 60, how about accepting that it is simply going back to where it ought to be?
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Surely demography and economics should be used in planning policy for the retirement age, assuming of course a medically fit senior individual. We are an increasingly ageing population, where there will be a relatively smaller working population supporting those in retirement. A way to rebalance this is to allow certain fit individuals to work longer. Also, due to better health care and health education, people are living longer, so will have to be supported by the rest of us for longer. If people remain productive in the workforce for a greater span then surely we all benefit, providing that the economy continues to grow and therefore demand is created for young entrants at the start of their careers.
Other economic realities which favour this argument are pension plans which are underperforming, endowment mortgages supported by underperforming life policies, and the exorbitant cost of houses, particularly in areas of high employment. Surely even a recently qualified 22 year old waiting to get his/her first flying job will recognise the advantages of a later retirement age when he/she faces the possibility of a fifty year mortgage.
Ours is an industry protected from the prospect of an old timer wasting O2 while not contributing much: our oldies have to pass a simulator check every 6 months and a stringent medical - if they can't do the job they're out.
They have a life time of experience to pass on and the fact that they've kept a job in an industry which is not sympathetic to big mistakes means they must be doing something right.
If you are young and thinking they are keeping you out of a job think again: if you are determined and good enough, you will get a job eventually - you have youth on your side.
Other economic realities which favour this argument are pension plans which are underperforming, endowment mortgages supported by underperforming life policies, and the exorbitant cost of houses, particularly in areas of high employment. Surely even a recently qualified 22 year old waiting to get his/her first flying job will recognise the advantages of a later retirement age when he/she faces the possibility of a fifty year mortgage.
Ours is an industry protected from the prospect of an old timer wasting O2 while not contributing much: our oldies have to pass a simulator check every 6 months and a stringent medical - if they can't do the job they're out.
They have a life time of experience to pass on and the fact that they've kept a job in an industry which is not sympathetic to big mistakes means they must be doing something right.
If you are young and thinking they are keeping you out of a job think again: if you are determined and good enough, you will get a job eventually - you have youth on your side.
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In the USA, mandatory FAA age 60 retirement does not coincide with entitlement to government pension (Social Security); full benefits are available only upon reaching age 65. This retirement gap should be closed by raising the arbitrary "age 60" rule to age 65 for medically fit pilots.
STS-61 (1993) Endeavour Shuttle Pilot Story Musgrave at age 61 already had demonstrated that "age 60" is not the magical age of reduced flying competency.
STS-61 (1993) Endeavour Shuttle Pilot Story Musgrave at age 61 already had demonstrated that "age 60" is not the magical age of reduced flying competency.
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Engineer, you seem to be persisting in the belief that your opinion on pilot employment practices carries any weight in this forum. As you appear to be a visitor, perhaps better to behave like a guest and keep quiet! I would not dream of popping up in an Engineering forum expressing controversial opinions on Engineer employment practices!
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I can't speak for the situation in the Americas but we in Europe have a demographic time -bomb ticking away with older people living longer and a reduced birth rate meaning a shrinking working population to support an increasing social security burden. Citizens of the advanced nations are living longer and staying fit longer, so it is imperative that there is a general re-think about retirement ages across the board, not just in aviation. The present system is pensions based with the inherent inflexibility this entails. I believe we must break away from these fixed and highly arbitrary retirement dates and introduce some flexibility. Some people could and should retire at sixty, or even before, whereas others would be both able and happy to soldier on to their seventies. I suspect that only by empowering this latter group will the pensions book be balanced long term. With regard to our own safety critical profession the criteria need to be more stringent than for, say, office workers but we already have the checks and balances of medicals and recurrent training to ensure competence. Again, some pilots could and should call it a day at fifty-five but there are many around who would be both happy and competent to go to sixty-five. Others might need to stop somewhere between those parameters. All it takes is for the pensions industry to do a bit of constructive work (for a change!) and allow such a flexible pattern of retirement to happen. To the Young Turks who are forever saying that older pilots block their prospects, I am personally very happy to see a silver haired guy in the left hand seat when I'm a passenger. He's got that pension in sight and he's not going to do anything stupid to stop him enjoying it. For the record, I'm fifty two.
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Just another question. If it is "not safe" for a pilot over 60 to be in command on a public transport flight, what is the stand point on a private flight!!!
excuse the spelling mistakes up is up down is down
excuse the spelling mistakes up is up down is down
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Mowgli and Pirate. I think you are both spot on.
No question about it that, due to personal circumstances beyond my control, I have to soldier on quite a bit longer yet. Sadly no big yacht in a sleepy lagoon for me!
I have to say the thought of going back to my roots at age 60 I find quite scary - night freight to Europe in miserable winter wx in a beat up old turboprop followed by a most enjoyable drive home on our super slick road system. Ah the romance of it!!!
There has to be a suitable compromise along the way and I hope we get some intelligent posts, and suggestions, on this thread.
Best regards
Fr8t M8te
No question about it that, due to personal circumstances beyond my control, I have to soldier on quite a bit longer yet. Sadly no big yacht in a sleepy lagoon for me!
I have to say the thought of going back to my roots at age 60 I find quite scary - night freight to Europe in miserable winter wx in a beat up old turboprop followed by a most enjoyable drive home on our super slick road system. Ah the romance of it!!!
There has to be a suitable compromise along the way and I hope we get some intelligent posts, and suggestions, on this thread.
Best regards
Fr8t M8te
Why anybody should want to continue beyond sixty is beyond me
unless they have several sets of alimony to find each month. I have seen the good and bad of elderly pilots from the very sharp
to the ones who can barely keep awake on the approach. There
can be little doubt that in the UK at least, the enforced retirement
of pilots from BA who then acquire instant commands in second
division carriers does inhibit the progress of younger colleagues
who did not find their way into the national carrier. I guess its
just a question of supply and demand or is it perhaps that much
quoted statistic that BA pensions are not paid for long after final
retirement due to the grim reaper ?
Personally I hope to get out before sixty and live a normal life but
then again my pension will not be on a par with our silver braided
comrades in Birdseed..........
As Nigel would say toodle pip old boy
unless they have several sets of alimony to find each month. I have seen the good and bad of elderly pilots from the very sharp
to the ones who can barely keep awake on the approach. There
can be little doubt that in the UK at least, the enforced retirement
of pilots from BA who then acquire instant commands in second
division carriers does inhibit the progress of younger colleagues
who did not find their way into the national carrier. I guess its
just a question of supply and demand or is it perhaps that much
quoted statistic that BA pensions are not paid for long after final
retirement due to the grim reaper ?
Personally I hope to get out before sixty and live a normal life but
then again my pension will not be on a par with our silver braided
comrades in Birdseed..........
As Nigel would say toodle pip old boy
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Doctors (brain surgeons, etc), dentists, lawyers (but then, they can bend the law any old way anyway!), postmen, Lotharios (viagra aided), Presidents & Dictators, game-show hosts, just about ANYBODY BUT PILOTS, are not age-restricted. I doubt if any of the above (except pilots) are given the equivilent of a Class I or Proficiency Check (Surgeons given 6-month proficiency checks? Are You Kidding? And, do surgeons have co-surgeons?).
Case made. We are the only group checked so thoroughly for mental/physical skills & proficiency. So, then, what are the reasons, except politicical/economic, supporting the violation of our rights to negotiate our job skills past 60 into gainful employment?
Younger pilots: we are all in different situations, as we approach 60. If I could retire with a 30-year DAL pension & golden handshake, I might agree, beamer, engineer, etc. I'd love that! Life didn't fall like that for many of us, though; so, we should be unjustifiably 'forced out', in many cases into near-poverty? Talk about 'pilot solidarity' all you like; you guys, in the name of 'solidarity', are just like those ALPA people of the '60's & 70's who, in the name of 'solidarity', kept many of us out, and are doing it again. Some 'Pilots'!......Some 'Solidarity'!
As per a similar thread in 'Questions' that I started: 1)Is there a lawyer in the house willing to pursue a 'class action' suit against the FAA age 60 rule on the basis of age discrimination? Any recommendations for a suitable lawyer? 2)Anyone out there willing to join me in this suit? Sam
Case made. We are the only group checked so thoroughly for mental/physical skills & proficiency. So, then, what are the reasons, except politicical/economic, supporting the violation of our rights to negotiate our job skills past 60 into gainful employment?
Younger pilots: we are all in different situations, as we approach 60. If I could retire with a 30-year DAL pension & golden handshake, I might agree, beamer, engineer, etc. I'd love that! Life didn't fall like that for many of us, though; so, we should be unjustifiably 'forced out', in many cases into near-poverty? Talk about 'pilot solidarity' all you like; you guys, in the name of 'solidarity', are just like those ALPA people of the '60's & 70's who, in the name of 'solidarity', kept many of us out, and are doing it again. Some 'Pilots'!......Some 'Solidarity'!
As per a similar thread in 'Questions' that I started: 1)Is there a lawyer in the house willing to pursue a 'class action' suit against the FAA age 60 rule on the basis of age discrimination? Any recommendations for a suitable lawyer? 2)Anyone out there willing to join me in this suit? Sam
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"I'd rather fly with a co-jo that's 65, in good health and has seen and done it all than some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough." - a couple of points here, 411A, er sorry, C. Montgomery B, on the SAFETY side of the argument having 2 Captains working on the same flight deck (and I DELIBERATELY avoided the wording "working together) is undeniably not often the optimum configuration. Especially when the "co-jo" feels that he has "seen and done it all" ending up in a "That's not how it's done son - I have control!" situation.
Remember the Korean B737 that crashed a couple of years back because the "co-jo" in the rhs was an ex-Air Force Captain (or General).
Typical of 411A's "I was born a Captain" attitude, is the statement wrt to F/O's " some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough".
EVERY GOOD Captain is well aware that there are some F/O's with whom he will fly who are slower to "develop" than others.
EVERY GOOD Captain will find it within his ABILITY to carry that F/O - perhaps that's one of the reasons we are made aware of passive incapacitation, and are taught how to handle it. EVERY GOOD airline will check that any Captain - before he is checked to line - is CAPABLE of operating without the F/O.
Believe it or not, CMB YOU were once one of those " some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough."
One sometimes wonders if 411A (and you, of course CMB
) would pass a Command proficiency check in today's world, considering the number of stories you relate where the F/O "Needless to say, he received his marching orders very quickly after that.".
I have flown with several F/O's older than myself, all of whom had held commands before - one stands out as being probably the epitome of the ideal F/O, relaxed, efficient, knowledgable - but not a "know it all" - reliable, observant, yet understanding that there IS only ONE Captain on the flight deck.
He's also great company on night stops - a good ol' bad boy!
Unfortunately I've experienced the other end of the spectrum as well. An old guy who didn't give a rat's @ss, and was a poor manipulator to boot - as a matter of fact he was downright dangerous on a couple of occasions when he was flying. For sure, had the sh!t hit the fan with this guy, he would have provided no back-up at ALL.
He was ONLY there because he wanted/needed the $$$$'s!
I guess if airline pilots are going to be employed over 60 years of age - and they allow Captains to continue to 62 in Japan, and indefinitely in Australia as long as they are able to pass their medical - the airline companies are going to need to ensure that the "Safety Culture" of their organisation isn't compromised.
In reality, I doubt that the numbers (of over 60's) who will want AND are able to do so, will not be significant. Regardless of that number - however small though - they MUST affect the career growth and available job opportunities of young up and comers. But from the guys I've known, who want to fly over 60, they couldn't care less about anyone except themselves!
If the predicted (severe) pilot shortage does eventuate within the next few years, flying over 60 may offer a temporary solution, however in the medium-longer term it could cause a problem, as younger pilots, seeing no prospects of promotion (on type and salary) LEAVE the industry.
Remember the Korean B737 that crashed a couple of years back because the "co-jo" in the rhs was an ex-Air Force Captain (or General).
Typical of 411A's "I was born a Captain" attitude, is the statement wrt to F/O's " some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough".
EVERY GOOD Captain is well aware that there are some F/O's with whom he will fly who are slower to "develop" than others.
EVERY GOOD Captain will find it within his ABILITY to carry that F/O - perhaps that's one of the reasons we are made aware of passive incapacitation, and are taught how to handle it. EVERY GOOD airline will check that any Captain - before he is checked to line - is CAPABLE of operating without the F/O.
Believe it or not, CMB YOU were once one of those " some wet behind the ears type that is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard the moment things get tough."
One sometimes wonders if 411A (and you, of course CMB
) would pass a Command proficiency check in today's world, considering the number of stories you relate where the F/O "Needless to say, he received his marching orders very quickly after that.".I have flown with several F/O's older than myself, all of whom had held commands before - one stands out as being probably the epitome of the ideal F/O, relaxed, efficient, knowledgable - but not a "know it all" - reliable, observant, yet understanding that there IS only ONE Captain on the flight deck.
He's also great company on night stops - a good ol' bad boy!
Unfortunately I've experienced the other end of the spectrum as well. An old guy who didn't give a rat's @ss, and was a poor manipulator to boot - as a matter of fact he was downright dangerous on a couple of occasions when he was flying. For sure, had the sh!t hit the fan with this guy, he would have provided no back-up at ALL.
He was ONLY there because he wanted/needed the $$$$'s!
I guess if airline pilots are going to be employed over 60 years of age - and they allow Captains to continue to 62 in Japan, and indefinitely in Australia as long as they are able to pass their medical - the airline companies are going to need to ensure that the "Safety Culture" of their organisation isn't compromised.
In reality, I doubt that the numbers (of over 60's) who will want AND are able to do so, will not be significant. Regardless of that number - however small though - they MUST affect the career growth and available job opportunities of young up and comers. But from the guys I've known, who want to fly over 60, they couldn't care less about anyone except themselves!
If the predicted (severe) pilot shortage does eventuate within the next few years, flying over 60 may offer a temporary solution, however in the medium-longer term it could cause a problem, as younger pilots, seeing no prospects of promotion (on type and salary) LEAVE the industry.
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Ah!
Notso Fantastic your silver penned prose befits your apt pseudonym, thus making one rush for dictionary elegance
Advice would be to read the following link second paragraph
http://www.pprune.org/
Also this second link which may steer you
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56706
Finally not all engineers work on the ground.
With the implementation of JAR-FCL this should have been the opportunitity to level the playing field on curtailment of licence privileges at the age of sixty. This was not carried out so JAR FCL 1.060 refers to three areas France Czech Republic and the rest.
For me I side with the French and the Americans on this topic and as KM states flying with two Captains can cause its own problems.
Simple solution Sixty and out. If you love aviation or need to maintain your life style seek employment as a DFO
Notso Fantastic your silver penned prose befits your apt pseudonym, thus making one rush for dictionary elegance
Advice would be to read the following link second paragraph
http://www.pprune.org/
Also this second link which may steer you
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56706
Finally not all engineers work on the ground.
With the implementation of JAR-FCL this should have been the opportunitity to level the playing field on curtailment of licence privileges at the age of sixty. This was not carried out so JAR FCL 1.060 refers to three areas France Czech Republic and the rest.
For me I side with the French and the Americans on this topic and as KM states flying with two Captains can cause its own problems.
Simple solution Sixty and out. If you love aviation or need to maintain your life style seek employment as a DFO
Last edited by Engineer; 18th Jun 2002 at 05:16.
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Glueball,what ever happened to the Bill that passed in Congress ,stating the limit in the US to 63????(I know the FAA is against it??)
One case in point against going tp the EU level of 65:one european Airline allowed the option of going to 63,with three medicals a year!!Once the EU adopted 65,as the norm,said Co' required all their guys to go to 65 for the full pension.
One case in point against going tp the EU level of 65:one european Airline allowed the option of going to 63,with three medicals a year!!Once the EU adopted 65,as the norm,said Co' required all their guys to go to 65 for the full pension.
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The Bill to raise the FAA age 60 limit still is stuck somewhere in the legislature. I haven't kept up with it as I am not anywhere near age 60. But I know that ALPA lobbyists are working hard to keep it from passing.
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Why should there be any reason for these gentlemen to have to fly as FOs after 55 or 60? Why should they not remain Captains, passing on the benefit of their many years of experience to the children that follow them ... a number of whom have posted on this thread?
There seems to be a disturbing trend towards a climate of expectation in this industry: "I want it and I want it NOW" ... "I have spent £50k so the world owes me a living and a high paid pilot's job" ... "I'm 29 and I deserve to be a long haul widebody Captain" ... "Let's lower the retirement age to 40 so I get into the left seat faster" etc.
Kaptin M, your arrogance shows through. Not one of those dreadful '89ers, are you, always whinging about how you were "done in" by everyone and it was everyone's fault apart from your own? No, I am not 411a but I have been around the block many many times and like him and Notso Fantastic I have acquired a patina of cynicism as well as a healthy respect for both experience and the fact that ours is a profession in which we learn something new every day. No one (apart from you - after all, you even call yourself 'Kaptin' in your monicker!) is saying that one is "born a captain" - that is a position one achieves through dint of sheer hard work and aptitude. In my case, as I am here, I was indeed able to cope without that FO; my point being that had I had an experienced older chap sitting beside me that situation would never have arisen in the first place. To extend your argument laterally, you seem to be making a case that there should be no second pilot and that aircraft should be capable of being operated by a single crew member! From the point of view of CRM, it's the bitter wannabe-in-the-left-hand-seat-but-circumstances- conspired-against-me types that are the real danger.
The French are about to change their stance on overflights by over 60s which is unworkable anyway and of course illegal under EU law. No doubt the Czechs will do the same as they are keen to join the EU (as long as the dark spectre of claims by Sudentenland Germans can be kept brushed under the carpet) and they don't want to rock the boat.
There seems to be a disturbing trend towards a climate of expectation in this industry: "I want it and I want it NOW" ... "I have spent £50k so the world owes me a living and a high paid pilot's job" ... "I'm 29 and I deserve to be a long haul widebody Captain" ... "Let's lower the retirement age to 40 so I get into the left seat faster" etc.
Kaptin M, your arrogance shows through. Not one of those dreadful '89ers, are you, always whinging about how you were "done in" by everyone and it was everyone's fault apart from your own? No, I am not 411a but I have been around the block many many times and like him and Notso Fantastic I have acquired a patina of cynicism as well as a healthy respect for both experience and the fact that ours is a profession in which we learn something new every day. No one (apart from you - after all, you even call yourself 'Kaptin' in your monicker!) is saying that one is "born a captain" - that is a position one achieves through dint of sheer hard work and aptitude. In my case, as I am here, I was indeed able to cope without that FO; my point being that had I had an experienced older chap sitting beside me that situation would never have arisen in the first place. To extend your argument laterally, you seem to be making a case that there should be no second pilot and that aircraft should be capable of being operated by a single crew member! From the point of view of CRM, it's the bitter wannabe-in-the-left-hand-seat-but-circumstances- conspired-against-me types that are the real danger.
The French are about to change their stance on overflights by over 60s which is unworkable anyway and of course illegal under EU law. No doubt the Czechs will do the same as they are keen to join the EU (as long as the dark spectre of claims by Sudentenland Germans can be kept brushed under the carpet) and they don't want to rock the boat.