Latest On Age 60-plus
Join Date: May 2002
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Retirement at 55 and European Legislation
Legislation will always lag behind reality. For a long while the trend was for retirement age to fall and it was seen as an advantage to retire early. in our own industry, pensions were adjusted to this. Now it is undoubtedly the case that we are living longer and having to confront our potential lack of ability to pay for those extra years of leisure.
In the UK, just for a change, we lag behind the US. As I understand it, we become subject to European legislation in 2006 which makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of age. This will of course, in our profession, be suject to the possession of a valid licence and age limits on this are a matter for continuing debate.
The question arises as to what happens in airlines that currently retire pilots at 55.(Is this still true of anyone else but BA?) I understand that they can apply for an exemption and then spend as much time as is convenient to themselves arguing the toss.
Do any legal eagles out there have more specific information on the likely movements in this sphere of the retirement debate?
In the UK, just for a change, we lag behind the US. As I understand it, we become subject to European legislation in 2006 which makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of age. This will of course, in our profession, be suject to the possession of a valid licence and age limits on this are a matter for continuing debate.
The question arises as to what happens in airlines that currently retire pilots at 55.(Is this still true of anyone else but BA?) I understand that they can apply for an exemption and then spend as much time as is convenient to themselves arguing the toss.
Do any legal eagles out there have more specific information on the likely movements in this sphere of the retirement debate?
Join Date: May 2002
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Greedy Youngsters.
The ALPA lobbyists mentioned above are a caucus of F/Os and SFOs in the USA majors who dont just want it but want it NOW!!!
They even stooped to publishing a lobbying document that depicted an over sixty pilot as being in a dressing gown and pushing a Zimmer frame! How low can you go, especially to avoid doing a bit of extra work.
Eventually they will be defeated by the law of common sense that is slowly creeping over the rest of the world.
How ever much 411A gets up your nose he gets most things right.
Kaptin M, for once I think you are talking rubbish.
They even stooped to publishing a lobbying document that depicted an over sixty pilot as being in a dressing gown and pushing a Zimmer frame! How low can you go, especially to avoid doing a bit of extra work.
Eventually they will be defeated by the law of common sense that is slowly creeping over the rest of the world.
How ever much 411A gets up your nose he gets most things right.
Kaptin M, for once I think you are talking rubbish.
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Well, am certainly pleased that....411A gets most things right...considering that this is his first post on THIS thread.
Hmmm, the good Kaptin M does get a bit long winded at times.
Hmmm, the good Kaptin M does get a bit long winded at times.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Hmmm, the good Kaptin M does get a bit long winded at times."
Tends to happen approaching age 60, 411!!
* What I used once to do all night, now takes me all night to do!"
Tends to happen approaching age 60, 411!!
* What I used once to do all night, now takes me all night to do!"
Last edited by Kaptin M; 18th Jun 2002 at 15:16.
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Guys, We all understood the rules when we signed on. It is not right to change them since we are in now. The guys before us retired at 60 so we could move up and now it's our turn to retire so the guys behind us can move up. If we want to pass along our "experience" we should consider teaching the next generation our skills. Those folks just starting out would love to have that perk just as we did on our very first few flights.
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To address the point raised by penltbx2:
If you are going to argue the case for a particular retirement age, do it on its own merit. If we all took the line that we knew the rules when we joined and they are immutable for all time then you would still be bashing your wife over the head with a club for foreplay.
Contracts that are not reasonable are not ultimately enforceable in law and the definition of what is reasonable changes with time. I'm not too sure about 60, but 55 is ludicrous.
If you are going to argue the case for a particular retirement age, do it on its own merit. If we all took the line that we knew the rules when we joined and they are immutable for all time then you would still be bashing your wife over the head with a club for foreplay.
Contracts that are not reasonable are not ultimately enforceable in law and the definition of what is reasonable changes with time. I'm not too sure about 60, but 55 is ludicrous.
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65 WAS THE AGE!
65 WAS the retirement age whe I got my first licence, back in 1965, (UK) so yes, lets stick to the rules we signed up under!
Norfolk Breaks make a good point too.
Norfolk Breaks make a good point too.
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I have to comment, as I reach the grand old age of 60 I will soon be pushed out as well. I don't have many counts of alimony to pay but need the job to have food on the table and to avoid the soup kitchen........... When I started you could go to 65 and that is all I needed then and could make it now if the extra five years come to pass, but any less screws up my plans and that is not good. So here is hoping it happens sooner not later
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Micawber
Another five years will only delay the onset of the soup kitchen. Best go now so that you can reserve a place in the queue and reflect on what financial decisions you should have taken to secure a better future.
Another five years will only delay the onset of the soup kitchen. Best go now so that you can reserve a place in the queue and reflect on what financial decisions you should have taken to secure a better future.
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When I was a young wannabe, I had to wait for the TOTAL situation to produce a vacancy that I could apply for. This included normal retirements, early retirements, medical LOL, growth or contraction in the industry, management style etc.etc.etc. Now I am approaching retirement this 'move out and let the young guys have a go' mentality seems to be very prevalent.
Why should I go early and compromise my lifestyle as a pensioner (and from a regional flying career, its nothing special I can assure you!) ? It seems to me that those in the union movement and in the 'heavy iron' end of it with their healthy salaries = healthy pensions simply use this 'red herring' so that no one will compromise their early retirement plans.
Let those who can go early go and the young wannabe's of today can start ealier than they otherwise could. Those of us who cant afford the luxury of early retirement and need the full time should not have to pay for their fantasies !
Why should I go early and compromise my lifestyle as a pensioner (and from a regional flying career, its nothing special I can assure you!) ? It seems to me that those in the union movement and in the 'heavy iron' end of it with their healthy salaries = healthy pensions simply use this 'red herring' so that no one will compromise their early retirement plans.
Let those who can go early go and the young wannabe's of today can start ealier than they otherwise could. Those of us who cant afford the luxury of early retirement and need the full time should not have to pay for their fantasies !
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proof of competence and fitness is required.
all else is down to financial options.
all financial options up to now management driven..
changing???
if competence and fitness proven, all else is a whinge...
all else is down to financial options.
all financial options up to now management driven..
changing???
if competence and fitness proven, all else is a whinge...
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Besides which, though I didn't realise it at the time, it was the old duffers that had the experience and ability to deal with some young know it all punk - me at the time - with the result that I learned more from them than the younger pilots.
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Looking through this post there does not appear to be a reference to the actual retirement age in the EU .I gather it may now be 63 and France overflys are currently being looked at. Some posts imply it is still 60.
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Look here
Age Restrictions
page 10/para 1.060. You need adobe acrobat reader to view this page. Hope it helps.
Age Restrictions
page 10/para 1.060. You need adobe acrobat reader to view this page. Hope it helps.
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In Canada we don't have an age restriction ,as yet.Providing one can still do the job,competently(don't scare the f'o's)and maintain the medical.....
What's the latest re' the French over fly ban,and how about italy?
What's the latest re' the French over fly ban,and how about italy?
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Engineer, occasionally in life one comes across an obnoxious, conceited and arrogant individual such as you. Who are you to make statements such as; another five years will only delay the onset of the soup kitchen. Best go now so that you can reserve a place in the queue and reflect on what financial decisions you should have taken to secure a better future
In 1990 I joined an airline that I wished to stay with until my retirement, that airline, followed by several others to whom I gave my all sadly went into liquidation.
At that time I made financial decisions based on the best pension advice available and a legal retirement age of 65.
The fact that the goalposts have moved and that my pension pot will buy one third of what the experts told me and the retirement age has changed with no compensation is not something that you should sneer about.
Getting down to the nitty gritty, yes I am 59, yes I can run most 30 year olds off the squash court, yes I can fly the aircraft as well as any 30 year old and no I don’t fall asleep at the controls. Statistically I was more likely to have a heart attack or testicular cancer in my 40s and yes I want to carry on.
Why do I want to carry on, most importantly I actually enjoy what I am doing, I enjoy flying, I enjoy training and examining and passing on skills to other pilots, I am proud to be a professional and to achieve a high professional standard, and what is more, notwithstanding what you think, it is actually legal to do so.
In 1990 I joined an airline that I wished to stay with until my retirement, that airline, followed by several others to whom I gave my all sadly went into liquidation.
At that time I made financial decisions based on the best pension advice available and a legal retirement age of 65.
The fact that the goalposts have moved and that my pension pot will buy one third of what the experts told me and the retirement age has changed with no compensation is not something that you should sneer about.
Getting down to the nitty gritty, yes I am 59, yes I can run most 30 year olds off the squash court, yes I can fly the aircraft as well as any 30 year old and no I don’t fall asleep at the controls. Statistically I was more likely to have a heart attack or testicular cancer in my 40s and yes I want to carry on.
Why do I want to carry on, most importantly I actually enjoy what I am doing, I enjoy flying, I enjoy training and examining and passing on skills to other pilots, I am proud to be a professional and to achieve a high professional standard, and what is more, notwithstanding what you think, it is actually legal to do so.
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JAA-FCLs
Engineer quotes a link for age limits - although I have acrobat I can't seem to access the information. Could someone make a precis of what it says and publish it here?
Like a lot of pilots I still enjoy the flying, but the money is the major consideration - still educating the children!
Cheers, Y
Like a lot of pilots I still enjoy the flying, but the money is the major consideration - still educating the children!
Cheers, Y