Lufthansa: random medication tests for pilots

[RAT 5]

Where does it end: why does it start? Because the muppets in charge think they need to be seen to be doing something and exercise their power. Total swinging bulls appendages. It's similar to some airlines; one guy screws up a basic manoeuvre and out comes a whole new SOP profile that prohibits the manoeuvre for those who know how to do it. The multitudes are penalised for the crass stupidity of the few. Why are Chunnel train pax not subjected to the same security as aviation pax? An explosion mid-channel is not a minor affair. Why can 10 guys with 100ml take perhaps dodgy stuff onto an a/c, but 1 guy with 1000ml is a disaster waiting to happen? And don't forget the lady with a 150ml yoghurt, or the guy with a 250ml water bottle 1/4 full or 3/4 empty. Armageddon agents all of them.
So, the medical testing? What about the coach drivers who every day career along mountain sides with paper thin barriers? What about lorry drivers hurtling down shopping streets. The problem is not pilots, it's people. 1 dead, 150 dead, it's all the same, only a different scale. The reaction should not be for publicity because the event was very public. There are thousands of hidden inconspicuous events every year which do not attract such reactions. The world turns and life goes on. Please let's not go down the same road as took us into the tiny plastic bag 100ml limit syndrome. The world is not a better place because of that, and I believe it will not be a better place if all the pilots are tested on a monthly, weekly, daily, per flight basis.

[carlrsymington]

Been through this

Lubitz didn't kill all of those people because he was depressed. He did it because he was a psychopath with a personality disorder.

100% agree...
I went through a terrible time with stress \ depression \ suicidal thoughts.
Not once did I ever think of harming anyone else. I struggled with (denied)the concept that me committing suicide it would hurt others though.
Came out the other side.
The reaction to this is nuts...
leave it be & let us see if it is a one off

[nonsense]

Originally Posted by carlrsymington

Lubitz didn't kill all of those people because he was depressed. He did it because he was a psychopath with a personality disorder.

Given how quickly people here pounce on anyone commenting on aviation issues without what they see as adequate qualifications, I find it a bit rich when pilots claim this level of confidence in their own judgement in matters of psychiatry.

[westhawk]

It doesn't seem that the field of psychiatry can find much consensus on matters concerning the prediction of future aberrant behavior. That's why there isn't and probably won't be an accurate psychological screening test for mass killing tendencies in individual persons anytime soon. All they really have is profiles and some presumptions based upon past cases. You don't need any medical "qualifications" to understand that without scientifically proven cause/effect linkage, no screening test will ever be conclusive. Identifying future aberrant behavior in human individuals is nothing more than science fiction and the stuff of Hollywood productions. And a panacea for the ignorant. Right up there with phrenology, astrology and fortune cookies.

Individual judgment falls well short as well. How many times have we heard how friends, neighbors and relatives express their surprise that someone killed themselves or someone else? "He seemed so pleasant", "such a happy person", "I never would have believed it possible they could do such a thing", etc...

I get the feeling that the potential for this type of behavior will always exist among a few individuals in society no matter what actions are taken. And accurately identifying these individuals before they form intent or actually put their destructive plan into action will always be a very low percentage proposition. It could just be that not all problems are 100% solvable by regulation and policy. Maybe not all in some instances. And very likely not with the blunt tool that psych screening is at present.

Besides, we appear to be headed more in the direction of requiring all citizens to consume some dystopian science fiction novel drug every day to ensure happiness and compliance anyway. Oh, wait a minute!

I'd say the best we'll be able to do anytime soon is to try and recognize when people are acting weird and get them away from safety sensitive duties until we've taken a closer look and resolved any questions regarding their fitness for duty. In flight, given a choice between satisfying an urgent need to visit the loo and leaving someone who's fitness I've begun to doubt up front I'd... Damn those quick turns!

[Pace]

With the Biggest study on mass murders showing no history of serious mental disorder in 8 out of 10 murders we have to look at the reality of these tests.
The airline had its reputation severely damaged by this crash and are in the business of selling seats on their aircraft.

They have to say to the paying public " Look what we have done to make sure this never happens again". the fact that what they implement has no practical benefit does not matter to them. What matters is that the public feel safe and making the public " feel" safe is very different from the fact that the public are safe.
Testing is like a statement. The public think food!! we have tested this food and its safe for public consumption but testing people is not like that! There is no test which can determine a mass murderer

Any aviation medical is a snapshot in time. someone maybe fine today not so fine tomorrow and the best placed people to monitor a pilots mental well being are his family, lovers, friends and colleagues who will know the pilot on a day by day basis.

i mentioned an anonymous web site where those people can express concerns over a pilot with a degree of anonymity. I stress degree as there are always troublemakers trying to cause problems but at least such a website would alert the medical department to check whether there is any basis to those concerns expressed.

There is a place for drug testing I think the japanese railway train drivers have to blow into a breathalyser when signing on for duty.

I really don't think drug testing of pilots would expose a future Lubitz but his girlfriend would have done had she expressed her concerns over his deteriorating mental condition and anger explosions at her.
Maybe more training of crew in monitoring colleagues to see and report tell tale signs would also help but drug testing? purely a cosmetic marketing exercise

[RexBanner]

Nonsense I have massive confidence in a diagnosis of psychopathy (which is fundamentally a lack of empathy and remorse) in the case of a guy who premeditated and executed the murder of 150 people in cold blood.

You show me how that diagnosis is in any way unsound and I'll happily retract it for you.

You have the right handle at least.

[RexBanner]

Or Springfield's Elliot Ness....

I didn't diagnose the guy I just said he was most likely a psychopath with another personality disorder which I didn't specify (psychopathy is obviously a disorder in itself!). The fact that he killed 150 people in premeditated fashion whilst ignoring the frantic pleas of the Captain proves beyond reasonable doubt that he had pyschopathic tendencies and that much you have agreed with. I did not speculate further.

I've never argued with you about tests for psychopaths (as it happens I agree) and I'm not arguing with you now. You're on your own on that one. What I object to is lumping this case together with depression. It's completely different.

[glofish]

a diagnosis of psychopathy (which is fundamentally a lack of empathy and remorse)

So according to this diagnosis most airline managers must be psychopaths.
Do they get initial medical tests, or regular annual ones, not to speak of random ones?

No, they get bonuses.

[Pace]

Rex Banner my apologies I thought your post was directed at me ! We speak the same language

[Mac the Knife]

"Lubitz didn't kill all of those people because he was depressed. He did it because he was a psychopath with a personality disorder."

Anecdotal of course, but a long career in medicine (and a scary number of colleagues who have committed suicide from depression) inclines me to believe that that is true. None of them ever killed anyone else during the course of their suicide.

Lubitz may well have been depressed, but taking 150 other people with you when you decide to off yourself argues for a rather different mindset from yer average depressive suicide......

[Pace]

Psychiatrists are psychiatrists

Then please enlighten us by directing us to the expert official diagnosis report of what was mentally wrong with Lubitz that would cause him to pre meditate, pre plan and then to execute his terrible murderous deed.

People with severe depression throw them selves under a train with no ill intent to others

if no one knows what was wrong specifically with Lubitz and I have not seen such a report then its all waffle as well as the drugs test! what are those tests supposed to show when 8 out of 10 mass murderers have no history of severe mental disorders

[Derfred]

Let's take it to the extreme - supposing the industry decided to subject every pilot to a mental health examination (carried out by a mental health professional) to determine whether the pilot was mentally fit for duty.

I suspect even Lubitz would have passed this assessment on this day. He would have made sure of it - this was going to be a big day for him.

There was an infamous rape/murder in Melbourne a short while ago in which the perpetrator had been jailed previously for similar offences but released early on parole based on the fact that he had persuaded officials (which would have included mental health professionals) of his complete reform. Only months later, he raped and murdered another young lady. Google Jill Meagher.

The point is, real psychopaths are good at hiding it.

Fortunately, not many of them become pilots. The statistics are on our side.

[Pace]

The FAA on May 27 announced that it had created a Pilot Fitness Aviation Rulemaking Committee to study the awareness and reporting of pilot emotional and mental health issues, methods used to evaluate emotional and mental health, and “barriers to reporting such issues.” The group, made up of U.S. and international government and industry members, including IATA, is expected to make recommendations to the FAA within six months. The Germanwings crash also highlighted the benefits of having two crewmembers on the flight deck at all times, a standard operating procedure in the U.S. since 2001, but one that is not yet universal, in part because of unfamiliarity with the process. Regarding the increasing melding of criminal and civil investigations

This is a snippet from the IATA report and from the old and new issues thread.

As usual the FAA get it right EASA get it wrong
Any medical like my class1 a week ago is a snapshot in time the same goes for any further mental tests.
8 out of 10 mass murderers have no signs of serious mental history and as other posters stated are probably Psychopaths who are very good at manipulating or covering up situations to their own advantage and devoid of emotions to others.

A snapshot in time doesn't mean that someone who passes with flying colours one day won't have some trigger event 2 weeks later

If I read what the FAA have hinted at more training and emphasis should be put on Pilots and colleagues to be made aware of psychological changes in the pilots they work with and more emphasis should be placed on colleagues to report such concerns. An anonymous medical Website with safeguards against malicious reporting would probably be the most beneficial move that can be made to eliminate a very unlikely event from happening again.

EASA no doubt will go with the pubic pacifying gestures rather than practical meaningful solutions