Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?
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pilots are not brave enough for that... it is passion job for them, no need money, it is all about the best office in world with the best view in world. The others things do not matter. 
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Piloting is a service, glorified taxi drivers. You are as good as your last flight.
Now with the automation system monitors
At the end of it all nothing to show but memories. No business you have created to sell for £millions or to enjoy an income from in your old age or to pass to your kids.
My God the hoops and expense we have to incur to follow that passion? a bit like an expensive demanding mistress.
And of course we have to trundle along for medicals which at anytime could mean You go in a pilot and come out an ex pilot.
Other professions ? Doctors, lawyers, Bankers, accountants and you are looking at basic £400 to 500 K plus huge bonuses on top and pensions which are unbelievable.
Yet the pilot with all that training and responsibility for 200 PAX walks out with maybe £120 K a year and no guarantee he/she will be a pilot in five years time.
Nothing to show at the end and all for the love of flying
Now with the automation system monitors
At the end of it all nothing to show but memories. No business you have created to sell for £millions or to enjoy an income from in your old age or to pass to your kids.
My God the hoops and expense we have to incur to follow that passion? a bit like an expensive demanding mistress.
And of course we have to trundle along for medicals which at anytime could mean You go in a pilot and come out an ex pilot.
Other professions ? Doctors, lawyers, Bankers, accountants and you are looking at basic £400 to 500 K plus huge bonuses on top and pensions which are unbelievable.
Yet the pilot with all that training and responsibility for 200 PAX walks out with maybe £120 K a year and no guarantee he/she will be a pilot in five years time.
Nothing to show at the end and all for the love of flying
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Nothing to show at the end and all for the love of flying
Piles: disruptive digestion system: lousy sleep patterns: lousy pension (if lucky):
Piles: disruptive digestion system: lousy sleep patterns: lousy pension (if lucky):
Doctors, lawyers, Bankers, accountants and you are looking at basic £400 to 500 K plus huge bonuses on top and pensions which are unbelievable.
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macdo:
That's why they say: " Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves."
Incidentally you see the same on a nationwide scale in Greece, where an entire nation is so heavily indebted that the population is now taken hostage by the Troika of governments, the EU(SSR) and the IMF who are just marionettes of the big corporations who made giant profits and that banks that lend them the money.
People who are still walking into this 'wannabe-a-pilot-against-all-odds' trap with their eyes wide open in 2015, should automatically be disqualified on psychological grounds from any airline job, because they obviously have ZERO ability in today's "information age" world to collect facts and assess risks/rewards.
That 60k at 25 years old is a lot less attractive when you are repaying a 100k loan! So now you are tied to the job by the debt, as if you leave your earning potential is immediately halved! Catch22 again!
Incidentally you see the same on a nationwide scale in Greece, where an entire nation is so heavily indebted that the population is now taken hostage by the Troika of governments, the EU(SSR) and the IMF who are just marionettes of the big corporations who made giant profits and that banks that lend them the money.
People who are still walking into this 'wannabe-a-pilot-against-all-odds' trap with their eyes wide open in 2015, should automatically be disqualified on psychological grounds from any airline job, because they obviously have ZERO ability in today's "information age" world to collect facts and assess risks/rewards.
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People who are still walking into this 'wannabe-a-pilot-against-all-odds' trap with their eyes wide open in 2015, should automatically be disqualified on psychological grounds from any airline job,
Unfortunately, this is not management's point of view...
Want something to make you feel even better?
Then consider all the other industries like engineering, medical, legal and public services. It's a crazy old world...
At least aviation mistakes are still rare enough to be considered newsworthy.
Then consider all the other industries like engineering, medical, legal and public services. It's a crazy old world...
At least aviation mistakes are still rare enough to be considered newsworthy.
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Then consider all the other industries like engineering, medical, legal and public services. It's a crazy old world...
And their terms and condition may go down too, but not like us, for us, it's RACE to the bottom. Nothing to compare.
Oh, and all my friends in other industry, at least they have property (house) and a stable life.
But of course, as others industry are crap, so it's a reason to lower our conditions too.
Rotate on this!
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This lack of oversight (or let's call it putting the blinds on, if not outright corruption) occurs in broad daylight under the pretext that such 'employment' tactics are beyond the scope of regulators and authorities assigned with supervising air-safety.
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I have no dog in this race but until such time as someone shows a correlation between P2F pilots and aircraft accidents the authorities and airlines will maintain their position.
Thanks who ? Thanks Automation...
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SLFGuy wrote:
There's an old adage in aviation: safety is no accident. Meaning, it requires a concerted effort by an organisation involved in commercial air transportation on many levels to achieve it. It needs a positive, safety orientated culture throughout. The absence of accidents for a period of time does not automatically prove an operation is safe. The disregard of the social aspects of crew composition, the creeping corruption of selection criteria that gets people into their seats, the financial pressures crew members are facing which may blind their judgement in a critical situation, may not immediately lead to an increase in accidents, just as a decision by an airline not to follow checklists would probably not immediately lead to more accidents.
Would it be wise to allow this airline to proceed with such a plan and wait for a number of accidents to call it off, or doesn't something (experience, tradition, aviation history) already tell us what a bad idea this is?
I have no dog in this race but until such time as someone shows a correlation between P2F pilots and aircraft accidents the authorities and airlines will maintain their position.
Would it be wise to allow this airline to proceed with such a plan and wait for a number of accidents to call it off, or doesn't something (experience, tradition, aviation history) already tell us what a bad idea this is?
Plastic PPRuNer
"Doctors, lawyers, Bankers, accountants and you are looking at basic £400 to 500 K plus huge bonuses on top and pensions which are unbelievable."
Doctors hey? You must be frickin' kidding me! Do you know how much malpractice insurance we have to pay these days - especially in "high risk" specialities? You seriously wouldn't believe it.
Do you know how much it costs to run a practice - rooms, secretaries, dept collectors, staff, rents, phones, computers, instruments, etc.? Thought not.
You do realise that in private, you're "on call" for your patients 24/24, 365/365?
And that, unless you've spent years with the NHS, the only pension you're gonna get is the plan you started when you started? And Bonuses? Merit awards for a few NHS consultants who are politically lithe and arse-licking enough - nothing for the rest of us.
So don't give me that "Doctors" crap
Thank God my son didn't follow the family tradition.
Mac
Still, just as for pilots, there ARE a few sublime moments though
Doctors hey? You must be frickin' kidding me! Do you know how much malpractice insurance we have to pay these days - especially in "high risk" specialities? You seriously wouldn't believe it.
Do you know how much it costs to run a practice - rooms, secretaries, dept collectors, staff, rents, phones, computers, instruments, etc.? Thought not.
You do realise that in private, you're "on call" for your patients 24/24, 365/365?
And that, unless you've spent years with the NHS, the only pension you're gonna get is the plan you started when you started? And Bonuses? Merit awards for a few NHS consultants who are politically lithe and arse-licking enough - nothing for the rest of us.
So don't give me that "Doctors" crap
Thank God my son didn't follow the family tradition.
Mac
Still, just as for pilots, there ARE a few sublime moments though
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Kerosene
No No No there are two types of threat ! Demonstrated and perceived
Aviation should be about plugging demonstrated safety holes not perceived
You follow perceived and you follow a route of huge costs and hassle with no demonstrated improvement at the end
Pace
No No No there are two types of threat ! Demonstrated and perceived
Aviation should be about plugging demonstrated safety holes not perceived
You follow perceived and you follow a route of huge costs and hassle with no demonstrated improvement at the end
Pace
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SLFGuy wrote:
Quote:
I have no dog in this race but until such time as someone shows a correlation between P2F pilots and aircraft accidents the authorities and airlines will maintain their position.
There's an old adage in aviation: safety is no accident. Meaning, it requires a concerted effort by an organisation involved in commercial air transportation on many levels to achieve it. It needs a positive, safety orientated culture throughout. The absence of accidents for a period of time does not automatically prove an operation is safe. The disregard of the social aspects of crew composition, the creeping corruption of selection criteria that gets people into their seats, the financial pressures crew members are facing which may blind their judgement in a critical situation, may not immediately lead to an increase in accidents, just as a decision by an airline not to follow checklists would probably not immediately lead to more accidents.
Would it be wise to allow this airline to proceed with such a plan and wait for a number of accidents to call it off, or doesn't something (experience, tradition, aviation history) already tell us what a bad idea this is?
Quote:
I have no dog in this race but until such time as someone shows a correlation between P2F pilots and aircraft accidents the authorities and airlines will maintain their position.
There's an old adage in aviation: safety is no accident. Meaning, it requires a concerted effort by an organisation involved in commercial air transportation on many levels to achieve it. It needs a positive, safety orientated culture throughout. The absence of accidents for a period of time does not automatically prove an operation is safe. The disregard of the social aspects of crew composition, the creeping corruption of selection criteria that gets people into their seats, the financial pressures crew members are facing which may blind their judgement in a critical situation, may not immediately lead to an increase in accidents, just as a decision by an airline not to follow checklists would probably not immediately lead to more accidents.
Would it be wise to allow this airline to proceed with such a plan and wait for a number of accidents to call it off, or doesn't something (experience, tradition, aviation history) already tell us what a bad idea this is?
You have an issue with P2F or you are in favor of P2F because you are one of those that is benefiting from this lousy schemes. I have no dog in this fight, yeah right! Are you are pilot?
Kerosene nails it.
Anyone who does not want to understand that P2F is not safe, is insane.
How can you crawl under a crazy amount of debts, work a real job in order to pay for food/rent, fly as mush as you can in order to finish your hours and... be safe?
P2F is becoming the 'jobs' for nouveau-riche kids who travels with daddy's credit card and don't care spending the money to get an eventual 'well deserved' job.
The way this is heading, anyone from middle class won't be able to sustain that amount of debt.
Last time I checked they are lacking pilots in Asia, but Europeans pay to work.
Last edited by Can737; 15th Jun 2015 at 16:03.
Rotate on this!
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You have an issue with P2F or you are in favor of P2F because you are one of those that is benefiting from this lousy schemes. I have no dog in this fight, yeah right! Are you are pilot?
I asked a simple question because believe you me if want things to change you're going to need a cogent argument.
You'll never win your case without one and put simply, the bolded part of your statement above is hardly Perry Mason.
A University Degree and intellectually demanding Postgraduate training taking 5 years.
5 years into a legal career in the UK expect a salary of about £45k.
10 years and partnership, perhaps £70k.
The same experience in a commercial firm in London, double the salaries but work twice as hard.
Basic schooling and an undemanding CPL/IR taking 2 years.
5 years at a Loco in the UK expect a command and a salary of £100k.
and that's flying a medium jet on shorthaul routes for a loco!
You can see why your average guy or gal fancies the professional piloting route. What's more, from personal experience, I can say that professional flying is far more fun and a lot less stressful than a legal career.
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5 years at a Loco in the UK expect a command and a salary of £100k.
and that's flying a medium jet on shorthaul routes for a loco!
After winter furlough, multiple base changes, plus huge positioning and dual housing expenses, I don't make even a third of that - as a captain. And if the 'trouble and strife' gets fed up with me being based in another country, you can cut that salary in half again.
Good job with prospects? You're having a larf, surely....
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SLFguy
P2F is beyond logic. This is slavery, this is human madness in 2015.
How can a pilot who does P2F morally challenge an airline manager on safety?
"Sir, the aircraft is overweight, I am not going!"
"Do as you want son, I will keep your 20000 euros, now get the hell out"
"Ha, today I feel sick, I will go anyways , I am not earning money, I am paying a rent, the faster I finish my hours, the sooner I get a job"
I never paid for TR, I never paid to fly on a commercial operation.
People who try to find reasons for P2F are frustrutated at pilots or dishonest, I am doing good in my career and I care about what I will leave to the next generations of pilots.
Quote:
You have an issue with P2F or you are in favor of P2F because you are one of those that is benefiting from this lousy schemes. I have no dog in this fight, yeah right! Are you are pilot?
I think this type of attitude is part of the problem as well.
I asked a simple question because believe you me if want things to change you're going to need a cogent argument.
You'll never win your case without one and put simply, the bolded part of your statement above is hardly Perry Mason.
You have an issue with P2F or you are in favor of P2F because you are one of those that is benefiting from this lousy schemes. I have no dog in this fight, yeah right! Are you are pilot?
I think this type of attitude is part of the problem as well.
I asked a simple question because believe you me if want things to change you're going to need a cogent argument.
You'll never win your case without one and put simply, the bolded part of your statement above is hardly Perry Mason.
P2F is beyond logic. This is slavery, this is human madness in 2015.
How can a pilot who does P2F morally challenge an airline manager on safety?
"Sir, the aircraft is overweight, I am not going!"
"Do as you want son, I will keep your 20000 euros, now get the hell out"
"Ha, today I feel sick, I will go anyways , I am not earning money, I am paying a rent, the faster I finish my hours, the sooner I get a job"
I never paid for TR, I never paid to fly on a commercial operation.
People who try to find reasons for P2F are frustrutated at pilots or dishonest, I am doing good in my career and I care about what I will leave to the next generations of pilots.
What planet is this on?
After winter furlough, multiple base changes, plus huge positioning and dual housing expenses, I don't make even a third of that - as a captain. And if the 'trouble and strife' gets fed up with me being based in another country, you can cut that salary in half again.
Good job with prospects? You're having a larf, surely....
After winter furlough, multiple base changes, plus huge positioning and dual housing expenses, I don't make even a third of that - as a captain. And if the 'trouble and strife' gets fed up with me being based in another country, you can cut that salary in half again.
Good job with prospects? You're having a larf, surely....