Noise, Parliament and Manchester
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Taken from the MAAplc website today.
Following on from some comments on this thread re weight, aircraft size etc, it's interesting that Continental, operating 777s, are mentioned in the article.
More Airlines Receive Awards From Manchester Airport
Manchester Airport has again recognised airlines that have consistently worked with the airport to improve their track keeping performance over a 12 month period.
The latest airlines to benefit from the award scheme are Brymon Airways, Continental Airlines and Finnair. Joining them are Crossair and CSA who are receiving the honour for the second year running. Each airline was presented with a 'Target Achiever Award' by the Manchester Airport Chair, Councillor Brian Harrison and Manchester Airport Group Chief Executive, Geoff Muirhead at a presentation held at Terminal 2 recently.
Airlines are given specific instructions by Air Traffic Control to ensure that when they depart from Manchester, they follow a 'preferred noise route' or corridor until they reach a certain altitude.
During the planning process for the second runway, the airport entered into a legal agreement which contained performance targets including track keeping. The targets stipulate that 95% of all take offs should be 'on track'. Records are monitored each year and those airlines that achieve this goal receive a 'Target Achiever Award'.
The airport monitors the performance of airlines using very specialised, high tech equipment known as MANTIS (Manchester Airport Noise and Track Information System) which tracks all aircraft operating within a 30 kilometre radius of the runway. All aircraft tracking information is presented to the airline and monthly performance tables are published and reported to the airport consultative committee.
Councillor Brian Harrison, Chair of Manchester Airport said "The departure corridors are designed especially to keep aircraft away from the populated areas to minimise disruption and noise to local residents - therefore it is important that airlines stay on track"
John Spooner, Managing Director of Manchester Airport, added, " The reward scheme, which was launched a year ago, is just one way that the airport can recognise the efforts of airlines who are constantly striving to achieve those targets. I am delighted to see that Crossair and CSA have been awarded again this year and glad to see Brymon Airways, Continental Airlines and Finnair joining them. Indeed we hope many more airlines will follow in their footsteps."
Date 20/7/2001
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: 160to4DME ]
Following on from some comments on this thread re weight, aircraft size etc, it's interesting that Continental, operating 777s, are mentioned in the article.
More Airlines Receive Awards From Manchester Airport
Manchester Airport has again recognised airlines that have consistently worked with the airport to improve their track keeping performance over a 12 month period.
The latest airlines to benefit from the award scheme are Brymon Airways, Continental Airlines and Finnair. Joining them are Crossair and CSA who are receiving the honour for the second year running. Each airline was presented with a 'Target Achiever Award' by the Manchester Airport Chair, Councillor Brian Harrison and Manchester Airport Group Chief Executive, Geoff Muirhead at a presentation held at Terminal 2 recently.
Airlines are given specific instructions by Air Traffic Control to ensure that when they depart from Manchester, they follow a 'preferred noise route' or corridor until they reach a certain altitude.
During the planning process for the second runway, the airport entered into a legal agreement which contained performance targets including track keeping. The targets stipulate that 95% of all take offs should be 'on track'. Records are monitored each year and those airlines that achieve this goal receive a 'Target Achiever Award'.
The airport monitors the performance of airlines using very specialised, high tech equipment known as MANTIS (Manchester Airport Noise and Track Information System) which tracks all aircraft operating within a 30 kilometre radius of the runway. All aircraft tracking information is presented to the airline and monthly performance tables are published and reported to the airport consultative committee.
Councillor Brian Harrison, Chair of Manchester Airport said "The departure corridors are designed especially to keep aircraft away from the populated areas to minimise disruption and noise to local residents - therefore it is important that airlines stay on track"
John Spooner, Managing Director of Manchester Airport, added, " The reward scheme, which was launched a year ago, is just one way that the airport can recognise the efforts of airlines who are constantly striving to achieve those targets. I am delighted to see that Crossair and CSA have been awarded again this year and glad to see Brymon Airways, Continental Airlines and Finnair joining them. Indeed we hope many more airlines will follow in their footsteps."
Date 20/7/2001
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: 160to4DME ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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160 to 4DME
It's nice to see that it is appreciated. It goes to show that airlines and their pilots are trying very hard to make track keeping work, however MIA could make it a whole lot better by producing lats and longs for turning points. The facts remain that an aircraft can follow a SID exactly as published and be outside the published so called MNR.
It's nice to see that it is appreciated. It goes to show that airlines and their pilots are trying very hard to make track keeping work, however MIA could make it a whole lot better by producing lats and longs for turning points. The facts remain that an aircraft can follow a SID exactly as published and be outside the published so called MNR.
Gamekeeper
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Once again Cossack, Sky 9 and others, thanks for your replies and your time. Just in case some are wondering I’m not a NIMBY and as `Not Long Now' chose I also chose to live close to an airport in order to have a short commute. I’m also one of those fortunate people (or is it sad?) who have an interest in and earn a living from aviation.
Apart from a semi-professional/personal interest in the subject, I find the debate (mostly occurring in the local papers) of note, especially its apparent affects on the local community. Unfortunately a lot of the discussion is emotive (fuelled by the press, as always) which I suspect will achieve very little, hence why I find it constructive to gain a professional perspective on the issue. I must take issue however with one point made by `Not Long Now' that those who complain about the noise don't seem to be the ones who've been in situ since before the airport was built. In fact, certainly around me, a large number of residents expressing concern (primarily with noise from landing traffic) are those that have been living where they are since the mid 60’s and 70’s, when the properties were built. It appears from the inputs here that there are significant difficulties in changing the current situation. Unfortunately in my limited correspondence with the airport Community Relations Department the quality of reply when outlining similar ideas to those contained in my earlier posts has been to put it mildly unprofessional and in some cases condescending. If the same has occurred to other residents it’s certainly not helping the understanding as to why things happen as they do. I’m sad that the professional face of MIA, being presented here by the likes of Cossack and others, who outline clearly the facts of how and why and are prepared to discuss different scenarios (be they impossible or not) is not the approach which comes across from the responsible individuals/department in MIA whose job it is to tackle these queries. Before it’s pointed out I do appreciate that the technical detail of airport operations my be lost on `joe public’, but it would be far better if the airport started out from the position that some of it’s correspondence may have the capacity to understand some of the finer points.
Anyway once again Cossack and others thanks for the explanations, I suspect that the likes of Jeff Gazard and CAMJAG (was it?) together with MP Osborne and others are only going to fuel the subject. Unfortunately as Osborne has already illustrated they may not understand the issues fully. This will be a shame as if constructive dialogue can take place between all the respective parties additional amicable arrangements may be found, even to include justification for taxiway additions/changes and where things cannot change MIA must be able to communicate the facts, detailed as they be, to similar individuals who can understand airport operations.
One final point. Your last para Cossack is very true and some residents I suspect have yet to come to terms with that.
Cheers PFR
Apart from a semi-professional/personal interest in the subject, I find the debate (mostly occurring in the local papers) of note, especially its apparent affects on the local community. Unfortunately a lot of the discussion is emotive (fuelled by the press, as always) which I suspect will achieve very little, hence why I find it constructive to gain a professional perspective on the issue. I must take issue however with one point made by `Not Long Now' that those who complain about the noise don't seem to be the ones who've been in situ since before the airport was built. In fact, certainly around me, a large number of residents expressing concern (primarily with noise from landing traffic) are those that have been living where they are since the mid 60’s and 70’s, when the properties were built. It appears from the inputs here that there are significant difficulties in changing the current situation. Unfortunately in my limited correspondence with the airport Community Relations Department the quality of reply when outlining similar ideas to those contained in my earlier posts has been to put it mildly unprofessional and in some cases condescending. If the same has occurred to other residents it’s certainly not helping the understanding as to why things happen as they do. I’m sad that the professional face of MIA, being presented here by the likes of Cossack and others, who outline clearly the facts of how and why and are prepared to discuss different scenarios (be they impossible or not) is not the approach which comes across from the responsible individuals/department in MIA whose job it is to tackle these queries. Before it’s pointed out I do appreciate that the technical detail of airport operations my be lost on `joe public’, but it would be far better if the airport started out from the position that some of it’s correspondence may have the capacity to understand some of the finer points.
Anyway once again Cossack and others thanks for the explanations, I suspect that the likes of Jeff Gazard and CAMJAG (was it?) together with MP Osborne and others are only going to fuel the subject. Unfortunately as Osborne has already illustrated they may not understand the issues fully. This will be a shame as if constructive dialogue can take place between all the respective parties additional amicable arrangements may be found, even to include justification for taxiway additions/changes and where things cannot change MIA must be able to communicate the facts, detailed as they be, to similar individuals who can understand airport operations.
One final point. Your last para Cossack is very true and some residents I suspect have yet to come to terms with that.
Cheers PFR
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Cossack, Chiglet or DME
As I know you all work together, all though maybe not on the same shifts, I wonder if you can enlighten me as to how the movement numbers are going - now that we have had both runways in use for sometime.
I see to recall a certain magical figure of 60 in one-hour having been attained last year and assume that this has probably been better already this year, but by how much?
Keep up the good work fellows (or lads and lasses as it may be!)
Scottie Dog
As I know you all work together, all though maybe not on the same shifts, I wonder if you can enlighten me as to how the movement numbers are going - now that we have had both runways in use for sometime.
I see to recall a certain magical figure of 60 in one-hour having been attained last year and assume that this has probably been better already this year, but by how much?
Keep up the good work fellows (or lads and lasses as it may be!)
Scottie Dog
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Hi Scottie
The peak arrival rate is about 34/hr, then the traffic runs out! The peak departure rate is about 36/hr.
These events do not usually happen concurrently. The departure pushes are usually prior to and then again after the inbound push, therefore the single runway (bold because of a vested interest in keeping this figure going!
) hourly movement record of 60 from last year (h+00-h+59) has been exceeded only once so far and only by 1!
It does seem, however, that there are very busy periods which may run outside h+00-h+59, with traffic that may be well over 60/hr but those figures are not recorded! C'est la vie!
The present declared runway capacity is 57/hr which is a rate which will not cause ground congestion. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there are some problems in the mornings when there are numerous widebody aircraft around, with a shortage of parking.
Reaching figures in the high 50s/hr does not cause any great problems and is much less stressful on the controllers than it used to be. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that with more space on the ground an hourly movement rate of 70/hr+ (IMHO) could quite easily be achieved.
A daily average this year is 680 which is about 50 more than last year. I think the record of 701 (Champions League final day a couple of years ago) will be broken this year.
PFR
I do not work directly for, or could be considered in any way, a spokesman for MA. NATS is a contractor providing ATC under contract to MA. I do know, however, that they read these pages and if what is said here in a level headed way is taken on board then it can only be for the good of everyone concerned.
Glad to be of help.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: cossack ]
The peak arrival rate is about 34/hr, then the traffic runs out! The peak departure rate is about 36/hr.
These events do not usually happen concurrently. The departure pushes are usually prior to and then again after the inbound push, therefore the single runway (bold because of a vested interest in keeping this figure going!
) hourly movement record of 60 from last year (h+00-h+59) has been exceeded only once so far and only by 1! It does seem, however, that there are very busy periods which may run outside h+00-h+59, with traffic that may be well over 60/hr but those figures are not recorded! C'est la vie!
The present declared runway capacity is 57/hr which is a rate which will not cause ground congestion. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there are some problems in the mornings when there are numerous widebody aircraft around, with a shortage of parking.
Reaching figures in the high 50s/hr does not cause any great problems and is much less stressful on the controllers than it used to be. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that with more space on the ground an hourly movement rate of 70/hr+ (IMHO) could quite easily be achieved.
A daily average this year is 680 which is about 50 more than last year. I think the record of 701 (Champions League final day a couple of years ago) will be broken this year.
PFR
I’m sad that the professional face of MIA, being presented here by the likes of Cossack and others, who outline clearly the facts of how and why and are prepared to discuss different scenarios (be they impossible or not) is not the approach which comes across from the responsible individuals/department in MIA whose job it is to tackle these queries.
Glad to be of help.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: cossack ]
Gamekeeper
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Cossack,
Just one more question if I may, well two actually (hopefully you'll still pick up the thread)....
When using the 6's, arrivals appear to swap from 06R to 06L between 12:00 and 15:00 or there abouts. Is that correct and can you tell me why ? Is there also a limit for using 06R for arrivals in the evening/night, not after midnight ?
Hope you won't mind answering my queries again. With thanks in advance. PFR
Just one more question if I may, well two actually (hopefully you'll still pick up the thread)....
When using the 6's, arrivals appear to swap from 06R to 06L between 12:00 and 15:00 or there abouts. Is that correct and can you tell me why ? Is there also a limit for using 06R for arrivals in the evening/night, not after midnight ?
Hope you won't mind answering my queries again. With thanks in advance. PFR
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06R/24L is only open from 0600 (0630 weekends) to 1200, and then from 1500 to 2100 local time, hence the switch.
It was agreed at the public enquiry that there would be no night use unless 06L/24R were to be unavailable for repair for example.
It was agreed at the public enquiry that there would be no night use unless 06L/24R were to be unavailable for repair for example.
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Having read this thread with great interest and having both professional and domestic interest in this subject I took the time to download and read the speech made by Mr. Osborne.
It is interesting that as the new MP for Tatton which is basically a fairly quiet constituency Mr. Osborne has jumped on the old media attention grabbing subject of Runway 2 at Manchester Airport as a way of making a name for himself very quickly.
I took time the other day to take a trip around the airfield with an Airfield Duty Manager and can only praise MIA for the environmental work which it has undertaken in the Bollin Valley which today looks more peaceful and tranquil than it has for many years. Indeed the only signs of environmental damager are where 'Swampy' and his mates had their encapmpent.
I accept that there is additional noise but overall the a/c are quieter than they were a few years ago and with airlines retiring the older and noiser a/c the problem should lessen in the future.
I live under the flightpaths and do not find the noise intrusive and can sit quite happily watching aircraft pass directly over my house.
Now some will argue I have a vested interest as I am in the aviation industry but none of my neighbours (all of whom are not) are bothered by aircraft departing off 24.
I think that this debate will go on and on if only because Mr. Osborne wants to keep it going.
It is interesting that as the new MP for Tatton which is basically a fairly quiet constituency Mr. Osborne has jumped on the old media attention grabbing subject of Runway 2 at Manchester Airport as a way of making a name for himself very quickly.
I took time the other day to take a trip around the airfield with an Airfield Duty Manager and can only praise MIA for the environmental work which it has undertaken in the Bollin Valley which today looks more peaceful and tranquil than it has for many years. Indeed the only signs of environmental damager are where 'Swampy' and his mates had their encapmpent.
I accept that there is additional noise but overall the a/c are quieter than they were a few years ago and with airlines retiring the older and noiser a/c the problem should lessen in the future.
I live under the flightpaths and do not find the noise intrusive and can sit quite happily watching aircraft pass directly over my house.
Now some will argue I have a vested interest as I am in the aviation industry but none of my neighbours (all of whom are not) are bothered by aircraft departing off 24.
I think that this debate will go on and on if only because Mr. Osborne wants to keep it going.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Chiglet
The FMS is programmed to turn at a DME as laid down in the SID, the problem comes in the wide variation of speeds on departures with higher IAS with higher TOW (on the same aircraft) leading to wider radii of turns.
The facts are that the MIA have no right to base their MNR's on specific points when the SID's do not define those points. That is why very few fines are levied.
The FMS is programmed to turn at a DME as laid down in the SID, the problem comes in the wide variation of speeds on departures with higher IAS with higher TOW (on the same aircraft) leading to wider radii of turns.
The facts are that the MIA have no right to base their MNR's on specific points when the SID's do not define those points. That is why very few fines are levied.
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Sky9,
I have done umpteen "fam" flights from EGCC, and they have all met the "Noise/Distance/Climb/Speed profile.
BUT mostly they were "scheduled" flights.
I DO appreciate [honestly] the "Charter" Guys and Gals problems.
All I am saying is most "modern" a/c have a [half] decent FMS, so cannot weight be taken into consideration? Or am I asking for the moon?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I have done umpteen "fam" flights from EGCC, and they have all met the "Noise/Distance/Climb/Speed profile.
BUT mostly they were "scheduled" flights.
I DO appreciate [honestly] the "Charter" Guys and Gals problems.
All I am saying is most "modern" a/c have a [half] decent FMS, so cannot weight be taken into consideration? Or am I asking for the moon?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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While we can question Mr Osborne's motives in making this speech, we cannot argue with the fact that he has picked up on that there is a huge disparity in the way that SID deviations are distributed amongst the airlines -100 out of 173 violations this year involved PIA or Virgin, and none involved BA which is the airport's biggest user. Also most responsible airlines DO respond to the warning letters. What is so wrong with forcing the ones which bin them to answer them?
MP's only agitate on subjects that the public complain about. There is no point in us bitching about Mr Osborne if airlines are in fact ignoring the rules.
MP's only agitate on subjects that the public complain about. There is no point in us bitching about Mr Osborne if airlines are in fact ignoring the rules.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Chiglet,
Its all to do with aerodynamics I'm afraid:
radius of turn = Vsquared/g*tan angle of bank.
It follows therefore that the radius of turn increases at the square of the speed or to put in laymans terms; heavier 767 covers more ground than a light one with the same angle of bank.
We do try, honestly, however people that draw MNR's don't understand aerodynamics. How do you explain the inside of the turn on Conga departures off 06 drawn at 90 kts. Fly that in a commercial jet and you will have a very close and meaningful meeting with residents of Bramall.
Its all to do with aerodynamics I'm afraid:
radius of turn = Vsquared/g*tan angle of bank.
It follows therefore that the radius of turn increases at the square of the speed or to put in laymans terms; heavier 767 covers more ground than a light one with the same angle of bank.
We do try, honestly, however people that draw MNR's don't understand aerodynamics. How do you explain the inside of the turn on Conga departures off 06 drawn at 90 kts. Fly that in a commercial jet and you will have a very close and meaningful meeting with residents of Bramall.
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Sky,
Honestly, not taking the Mick. BUT admittedly haven't flown on a 767 out of Manch [broad hint ]
Having worked there for umpteen [and then some] years iwould have thought [wrongly, as it turns out] that the SIDs "would" have been modded accordingly for greater AUWs.
I still stand by my earlier post about the SID map though
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Honestly, not taking the Mick. BUT admittedly haven't flown on a 767 out of Manch [broad hint
]Having worked there for umpteen [and then some] years iwould have thought [wrongly, as it turns out] that the SIDs "would" have been modded accordingly for greater AUWs.
I still stand by my earlier post about the SID map though
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Onan,
Don't get me wrong - I can be as big a critic of MAPLC as the next person but I firmly believe that the 'new' MP for Tatton is in this for its political exposure of him personally.
It reminds me of "The B3 bomber theory" in the film "Wag The Dog" - make enough noise and the press will think you are doing something !
Don't get me wrong - I can be as big a critic of MAPLC as the next person but I firmly believe that the 'new' MP for Tatton is in this for its political exposure of him personally.
It reminds me of "The B3 bomber theory" in the film "Wag The Dog" - make enough noise and the press will think you are doing something !
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BillTheCoach;
Purely political posturing on his part and i'm sure, at the end of the day, (no pun intended) the runway will be utilized to it's fullest capacity, and rightly so.
Purely political posturing on his part and i'm sure, at the end of the day, (no pun intended) the runway will be utilized to it's fullest capacity, and rightly so.
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Onan,
I have spent the past couple of days roaming around the area near Runway 2 looking at new houses and have found the noise there any louder than it is in Poynton where I currently live.
I don't hear the good citizens of Woodford or Poynton screaming as loud as those in Mobberley !
I have spent the past couple of days roaming around the area near Runway 2 looking at new houses and have found the noise there any louder than it is in Poynton where I currently live.
I don't hear the good citizens of Woodford or Poynton screaming as loud as those in Mobberley !