Aer Lingus suspends pilots & ops (merged)
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just a customer, why don't you apply for a job in Aer Lingus management. There could be a top postition up for grabs very soon.
I think you have many of the required qualities. Your name isn't Willie is it?
I think you have many of the required qualities. Your name isn't Willie is it?
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Incidentally, our BA colleagues might be interested to hear of the type substitution on City Flyer's Dublin-LGW service today. It was one 4-engined type for another- B747 for a BAe146!
BA crews beware of the thin end of the oneworld wedge. I needn't point out that EI salaries are about 50% of yours.
BA crews beware of the thin end of the oneworld wedge. I needn't point out that EI salaries are about 50% of yours.
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Well if thats true then its very disturbing, although do we know whether they were carrying AL passengers, or just the many hundreds who buy the BA codeshare tickets and whom BA would be obliged to refund otherwise? Unfortunately it appears to be the case that any BA crew member rostered to do this unpalatable work has no legal fall back should they refuse to do so, and so would face suspension or even dismissal.
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Posts such as that from [B]'Just a Customer'/[B] are exactly the reason I started a thread about 18 months ago, suggesting that this forum should go back to it's roots, i.e. a Professional Pilots Rumour Network. At that time I was shot down in flames, and most likely will be again.
To suggest that EI pilots are anything other than highly dedicated professionals is total garbage.
I'm feel certain that EI pilots are fully aware of the state of their company's finances and have no wish to permanently put themselves out of work.
As a UK pilot with 38 years in the industry, I think that I have sufficient seniority to confirm that a 10 hour rest period is totally inadequate. The UK (CAP371) minimum of 11 hours away from base and 12 hours at base is the absolute minimum. CAP371 allows those minima to be reduced at the Commander's Discretion to be reduced to not less than 10 hours at the place of rest, but such reductions should be regarded as the exception, not the rule.
I fully support the EI pilots, and wish them the very best in their struggle with an inept management.
Good luck Guy and Gals.
To suggest that EI pilots are anything other than highly dedicated professionals is total garbage.
I'm feel certain that EI pilots are fully aware of the state of their company's finances and have no wish to permanently put themselves out of work.
As a UK pilot with 38 years in the industry, I think that I have sufficient seniority to confirm that a 10 hour rest period is totally inadequate. The UK (CAP371) minimum of 11 hours away from base and 12 hours at base is the absolute minimum. CAP371 allows those minima to be reduced at the Commander's Discretion to be reduced to not less than 10 hours at the place of rest, but such reductions should be regarded as the exception, not the rule.
I fully support the EI pilots, and wish them the very best in their struggle with an inept management.
Good luck Guy and Gals.
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.........."it appears to be the case that any BA crew member rostered to do this unpalatable work has no legal fall back should they refuse to do so, and so would face suspension or even dismissal."
If such pilots do not throw a sickie and operate any Aer Lingus flight, I WILL GLADLY reciprocate the action when the time comes. If his colleagues quietly sttand by they are equally culpable of being scabs.
ENOUGH of you wimps hiding behind secondary picking legislation. If you have any balls at all you will easily find ways to avoid be scabs.
Just don't forget:
... the world is round, and what you gives comes back around.
If such pilots do not throw a sickie and operate any Aer Lingus flight, I WILL GLADLY reciprocate the action when the time comes. If his colleagues quietly sttand by they are equally culpable of being scabs.
ENOUGH of you wimps hiding behind secondary picking legislation. If you have any balls at all you will easily find ways to avoid be scabs.
Just don't forget:
... the world is round, and what you gives comes back around.
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The management of Aer Lingus are treating their passengers like cra p. I have just come back from Cork Airport and it was so sad to see an Aer Lingus A321 parked so tightly at the very back of Cork's South Ramp to use up as little space as possible. For shame, Aer Lingus managers! Otherwise Cork was heaving with two more 747s landing for Lourdes charters tomorrow
!
!
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Well if thats true then its very disturbing, although do we know whether they were carrying AL passengers, or just the many hundreds who buy the BA codeshare tickets
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Now I am not yet an (employed) commercial pilot, so correct me if I am wrong: surely even if the routes are covered by other airlines on a wet lease AerLingus are still losing money hand over fist? I realise they are not losing money at the same rate as they would if they were having to deal with stranded passengers, but it is not as bleak a situation as might be inferred from some posts here.
BA may also be putting extra capacity in to cover two eventualites - people let down by AL still needing to fly, taking a fat refund and buying a BA ticket, and AL simply block booking stranded passengers. Now the effect is much the same in some ways as wet lease, but there can be little complaint about BA selling tickets that are requested or about BA pilots therefore flying those routes.
Seems rather more like BA cashing in on AL's misfortune, and given the nationalism and cross-airline jealousy it probably sickens AL management that their actions help a rival, and one I believe is not within "Oneworld".
The alternative of this extra market being ignored will cost AL no more but simply irritate passengers and put people off air travel.
Whatever the situation with route cover, best of luck to the AL pilots in getting a message to the management.
---
On a related issue has anyone else noticed the bias in BBC coverage of the strike?
In the news the strike is always over "pilots not accepting the companies survival plan". Of course this is the case from the point of view of AL management. From the pilots' point of view it is over the management forcing damaging changes to their lifestyles and more importasntly the safety of air travel. Perhaps we could email the BBC en masse with a complaint - I would happily append my name to such a message.
BA may also be putting extra capacity in to cover two eventualites - people let down by AL still needing to fly, taking a fat refund and buying a BA ticket, and AL simply block booking stranded passengers. Now the effect is much the same in some ways as wet lease, but there can be little complaint about BA selling tickets that are requested or about BA pilots therefore flying those routes.
Seems rather more like BA cashing in on AL's misfortune, and given the nationalism and cross-airline jealousy it probably sickens AL management that their actions help a rival, and one I believe is not within "Oneworld".
The alternative of this extra market being ignored will cost AL no more but simply irritate passengers and put people off air travel.
Whatever the situation with route cover, best of luck to the AL pilots in getting a message to the management.
---
On a related issue has anyone else noticed the bias in BBC coverage of the strike?
In the news the strike is always over "pilots not accepting the companies survival plan". Of course this is the case from the point of view of AL management. From the pilots' point of view it is over the management forcing damaging changes to their lifestyles and more importasntly the safety of air travel. Perhaps we could email the BBC en masse with a complaint - I would happily append my name to such a message.
PPRuNe Engineering Dept Apprentice
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Well, first and formost, the strike has my support, these manager-Dublin4-types (excuse my gross tarring with same brush) should look out of their own @rses for once, the very same types running eircom. 
I think that if the worst happens and AL goes down the swanny, I'm sure that the market will have a gaping hole in transatlantic flights, and If you're quick about it and do it before Virgin, BA, get there mitts on it, a new transatlantic service provider can be found. Let's just hope it's either Aer Arann(with a large bank loan and support from Enterprise Ireland) or a new company, maybe even run by ex-Aer Lingus pilots (and please God not O'Leary!).
Of course, I could be grossly mistaken
I think that if the worst happens and AL goes down the swanny, I'm sure that the market will have a gaping hole in transatlantic flights, and If you're quick about it and do it before Virgin, BA, get there mitts on it, a new transatlantic service provider can be found. Let's just hope it's either Aer Arann(with a large bank loan and support from Enterprise Ireland) or a new company, maybe even run by ex-Aer Lingus pilots (and please God not O'Leary!).
Of course, I could be grossly mistaken
Last edited by nosefirsteverytime; 31st May 2002 at 23:35.
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Send Clowns - I'll correct you because you miss the third possibility, that BA are flying pax who've bought a codeshare ticket to Dublin which is actually on AL. These pax have bought the ticket from BA, have a ticket with a BA flight number on it and the money they spent has gone to BA. BA thus have an obligation to carry them. If you're referring to BA in your comment about so-called 'cross-airline jealousy' then I suggest you take a look at who founded the thirdworld alliance, then pick up a biology book to learn your @rse from your elbow.
Mach Buffet - I don't care much for your tone. I fully support the AL strike and have many friends in the airline participating. They however are all participating in a legal strike, with the full support of Irish labour laws. I believe most BA pilots would follow their conscience if asked to operate services to Ireland, but if anyone could be pinned down by management in such a way as to suspected of secondary picketing then they'd be out of a job with no legal recourse, a path which you don't even expect your own colleagues to follow.
Seriph - If your sister had worked harder she could have been a doctor, with ultimate responsibility for patient lives, and earning £120 for doing my medical in 30 minutes when she wasn't available for NHS work.
Apparently the 744 did operate the service today, crewed by management pilots who felt the need to pass through LGW in civvies rather than uniform. Perhaps they do have some shame? My source tells me their purpose was widely commented upon on LGW frequencies.
Mach Buffet - I don't care much for your tone. I fully support the AL strike and have many friends in the airline participating. They however are all participating in a legal strike, with the full support of Irish labour laws. I believe most BA pilots would follow their conscience if asked to operate services to Ireland, but if anyone could be pinned down by management in such a way as to suspected of secondary picketing then they'd be out of a job with no legal recourse, a path which you don't even expect your own colleagues to follow.
Seriph - If your sister had worked harder she could have been a doctor, with ultimate responsibility for patient lives, and earning £120 for doing my medical in 30 minutes when she wasn't available for NHS work.
Apparently the 744 did operate the service today, crewed by management pilots who felt the need to pass through LGW in civvies rather than uniform. Perhaps they do have some shame? My source tells me their purpose was widely commented upon on LGW frequencies.
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just a customer - please invest in a copy of Dr Stephen Covey's management bestseller. It will clear up your misunderstandings and make for a better-run company. Available from amazon.com. Everyone here can see through your ruse, even our resident press lurkers.
A most pathetic and childish attempt, when you could have had the opportunity to put across the management line in a constructive and adult manner.
A most pathetic and childish attempt, when you could have had the opportunity to put across the management line in a constructive and adult manner.
Last edited by Lucifer; 1st Jun 2002 at 11:12.
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Hand Solo, I am interested to hear that management pilots operated the 744 today. I also accept your point about secondary picketing. However, I don't accept the benign explainations of today's activities.
I have it on good authority that the type substitution resulted directly from a telephone conversation between Willie Walsh and BA management. This is an extremely worrying development for both Aer Lingus and BA pilots. As to what can be done vis a vis legislation, I don't know.
As an aside- Seriph, do you hate yourself? I think you should see a professional (don't look in the mirror).
I have it on good authority that the type substitution resulted directly from a telephone conversation between Willie Walsh and BA management. This is an extremely worrying development for both Aer Lingus and BA pilots. As to what can be done vis a vis legislation, I don't know.
As an aside- Seriph, do you hate yourself? I think you should see a professional (don't look in the mirror).
Grandpa Aerotart
AL guys/girls...I just watched a report on CNN...walking with signs saying 'reporting for work' will not do it for you alone. The CNN report in general and the interview with one of the other Union 'Leaders' from AL was pointed in isolating the pilots as 'not in step' and as the root cause.
I can see 89 all over again...I wasn't involved in that dispute but ,like this one, sat back at long distance and watched as opportunities were squandered.
If you don't get an accurate message out to the media voicing your concerns and the real reason for this dispute then you are dead and just don't realise it yet.
Management immorallity must be exposed to a very public airing..if you play by gentlemens rules you will be shatt on from a great height. If you aren't prepared to learn the lessons of Oz 89, current CX and numerous other disputes over the last 20 years then why bother in the first place?
You need a suitable spokesman, in uniform, calmly repeating the essential information over and over on every TV and radio station you can get his face/voice. No emotion just the facts of the situation...and some short pertinant questions for management to answer in the public domain. Newspaper adds...whatever.
If it's true that,
1/. You're the most cost effective crews in Europe,
2/. That rostering practices are being dangerously flaunted,
3/. That pilots are being suspended without pay for working within agreed guidelines,
4/. That management are on a cynical, greedy, money grabbing Union bust
5/. And that independant professional analysis proves the airline is not in the dire financial situation that management claim due 911.
then you have grounds for complaint in any morally competent society.
Get that message out constantly by whatever means comes to hand and you may stand a chance of gaining public support and embarrassing management back to the negotiating table with some semblance of 'good will'.
Don't and you will be percieved as sitting in the corner playing with your willies(rather like HKAoA at the moment)...undeserving of the support you wish for from aviation professionals world wide and the public in general.
Best of luck.
Chuck.
I can see 89 all over again...I wasn't involved in that dispute but ,like this one, sat back at long distance and watched as opportunities were squandered.
If you don't get an accurate message out to the media voicing your concerns and the real reason for this dispute then you are dead and just don't realise it yet.
Management immorallity must be exposed to a very public airing..if you play by gentlemens rules you will be shatt on from a great height. If you aren't prepared to learn the lessons of Oz 89, current CX and numerous other disputes over the last 20 years then why bother in the first place?
You need a suitable spokesman, in uniform, calmly repeating the essential information over and over on every TV and radio station you can get his face/voice. No emotion just the facts of the situation...and some short pertinant questions for management to answer in the public domain. Newspaper adds...whatever.
If it's true that,
1/. You're the most cost effective crews in Europe,
2/. That rostering practices are being dangerously flaunted,
3/. That pilots are being suspended without pay for working within agreed guidelines,
4/. That management are on a cynical, greedy, money grabbing Union bust
5/. And that independant professional analysis proves the airline is not in the dire financial situation that management claim due 911.
then you have grounds for complaint in any morally competent society.
Get that message out constantly by whatever means comes to hand and you may stand a chance of gaining public support and embarrassing management back to the negotiating table with some semblance of 'good will'.
Don't and you will be percieved as sitting in the corner playing with your willies(rather like HKAoA at the moment)...undeserving of the support you wish for from aviation professionals world wide and the public in general.
Best of luck.
Chuck.
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Hand Solo
The issue here is that the 747 was operated on a day that the pilots were locked out. The pilots were not on strike!
It was put on the route not to just carry BA pax, but to carry EI pax as well. The use of the 747 was a blatant act of provocation, designed to assist EI continue as much of their operation as possible, possibly bringing some Heathrow passengers as well, and taking work away from Aer Lingus pilots.
If BALPA sit back and permits this, do you expect us to do any different when the tables are turned. Hiding behind secondary picketing legislation is childish. Last year the police force here, all went sick on a given day as they were prohibited from striking.
Wake up guys YOU ARE NEXT whether you like it or not.
The issue here is that the 747 was operated on a day that the pilots were locked out. The pilots were not on strike!
It was put on the route not to just carry BA pax, but to carry EI pax as well. The use of the 747 was a blatant act of provocation, designed to assist EI continue as much of their operation as possible, possibly bringing some Heathrow passengers as well, and taking work away from Aer Lingus pilots.
If BALPA sit back and permits this, do you expect us to do any different when the tables are turned. Hiding behind secondary picketing legislation is childish. Last year the police force here, all went sick on a given day as they were prohibited from striking.
Wake up guys YOU ARE NEXT whether you like it or not.
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MB - BALPA has no say whatsoever in whether BA put any aircraft on any route. The 744 was operated by management pilots, the vast majority of whom are not BALPA members, the same group who operated services during the last BA pilots strike and who will do the same during the next one. If BA want to put a 747, a 777 or even Concorde on the route they have enough non-union management pilots sitting around to do it. We are not hiding behind secondary picketing legislation as you put it, but you may remember a certain Thatcher character who came down on unions like a ton of bricks. Any attempt at organised secondary picketing, or an orchestrated sick-out, would not only be illegal but see BALPA in the High Court being sued for every penny its got in damages. It happened to the American pilots association, I've no doubt BA have taken note. We are fully aware that we are next, and had it not been for Sept 11th our own dispute would probably have come to a head last year. However there is no sense in propelling ourselves headlong into a different dispute with BA for which we are unprepared, and which itself could severely damage our union in a futile attempt to prevent something over which we have no control. We all wish you well in your strike, but our management are world leaders in nasty, strongarm tactics and if they want to run sneaky ad hoc charters they'll find a way to do it and crew them themselves regardless of what we do.