Aer Lingus suspends pilots & ops (merged)
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"a) EXACTLY what the company are trying to institute for 'rest'
b) what the legal documents call for
c) what the 'industrial agreement' calls for
I cannot see this anywhere, despite a request on page 1, and, perhaps unsurpisingly, I've heard nothing from BALPA."
a)10 hours at base
b)CAA is 11 hours min
c)our current minima is 12 hours
b) what the legal documents call for
c) what the 'industrial agreement' calls for
I cannot see this anywhere, despite a request on page 1, and, perhaps unsurpisingly, I've heard nothing from BALPA."
a)10 hours at base
b)CAA is 11 hours min
c)our current minima is 12 hours
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Aer Lingus needed a survival plan to get over sept 11 and foot&mouth it did survive with the help of the pilots -the issue is not the survival of the airline but the pilots stopping willie w@anker taking the **** out of his ex colleagues!!!!!!!
good luck to everyone -hold the line.
good luck to everyone -hold the line.
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cb, I think what BOAC was wanting is the IAA minima, not CAA. I think he's probably fairly familiar with those!
By the way, 11 hours is for rest in an hotel, not at home, which is 12 hours or the length of the preceding duty, whichever is the longer.
By the way, 11 hours is for rest in an hotel, not at home, which is 12 hours or the length of the preceding duty, whichever is the longer.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Thanks, cb.
From your post, since b) > a) the matter would appear to be a breach of statutory regs. by Aer Lingus. c) > a) is an industrial matter; b) > a) is a legal one.
If so, a good union press-officer will blow AL out of the water - or am I over-simplifying?
From your post, since b) > a) the matter would appear to be a breach of statutory regs. by Aer Lingus. c) > a) is an industrial matter; b) > a) is a legal one.
If so, a good union press-officer will blow AL out of the water - or am I over-simplifying?
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As an interested observer not directly invovled...
Why do I see the phrases like "union busting", more than once in close assoication with "One World Alliance", all over the forum threads on this topic but this has not, as far as I know, been mentioned on any of the news items on radio or TV, including extended interviews with union reps?
Is it bad PR to talk of union breaking or something?
Why do I see the phrases like "union busting", more than once in close assoication with "One World Alliance", all over the forum threads on this topic but this has not, as far as I know, been mentioned on any of the news items on radio or TV, including extended interviews with union reps?
Is it bad PR to talk of union breaking or something?
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Thank you Captain Stable for your corrections.
BOAC, Aer Lingus is governed by IAA minima, which are whatever Aer Lingus phone up and ask for.
In answer to your point on PR, it is being said. Interestingly, Aer Lingus Dan, the Propaganda Man, stated today on radio that the 10 hour turnaround was only for "emergencies".
I don't know if that meant it was to solve emergencies or cause them.
BOAC, Aer Lingus is governed by IAA minima, which are whatever Aer Lingus phone up and ask for.
In answer to your point on PR, it is being said. Interestingly, Aer Lingus Dan, the Propaganda Man, stated today on radio that the 10 hour turnaround was only for "emergencies".
I don't know if that meant it was to solve emergencies or cause them.
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Fully support any employee who wants to defend their conditions and ensure safety.
However as someone has said you have to get the public and other AL staff behind you. A relative of mine works for AL (in marketing), they are by no means right wing and have supported the TEAM Lingus workers etc. However, they have little time for the AL pilots. If you don't carry young non aircrew AL staff with you, you haven't a chance.
However as someone has said you have to get the public and other AL staff behind you. A relative of mine works for AL (in marketing), they are by no means right wing and have supported the TEAM Lingus workers etc. However, they have little time for the AL pilots. If you don't carry young non aircrew AL staff with you, you haven't a chance.
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Thank you all for your support. It is comforting to know such a large body of people that you have never met before, are out there sympathetic to your plight.
Facing into a strike is a nerve racking to say the least. What is most upsetting about this strike is how nasty certain managers have become.
All line pilots, along with the majority of management pilots have been consistent in their professionalism and dedication throughout their career in Aer Lingus, as in the majority of airlines. They have all adhered to their contracts of employment, and often delivered far more above and beyond the minimum required of them.
Now, certain managers have decided to no longer respect the contracts that exist and unilaterally impose new conditions on the pilot body. The pilots have serious reservations about the safety of the operation if these imposed conditions were to be adhered to.
Seven pilots have been suspended to date without pay for refusing to accept rest periods substantially below those agreed. These pilots were acting fully in accordance with their agreements and contract of employment.
If you are concerned with what is happening here in Aer Lingus, could I ask you to assist us by e-mailing the following that are directly involved in this dispute, and expressing your concern:
[email protected]
This is the current Chief Executive of Aer Lingus, and a former pilot. He is the driving force behind this dispute.
[email protected]
The Aer Lingus' Chief Pilot and Flight Operations Manager. This is the manager that has suspended the seven pilots to date, without good reason.
[email protected]
The Aer Lingus Press Officer, who has claimed, wrongly,amongst other things, that the average Aer Lingus pilot does effectively 10 hours flying per week.
As fellow pilots your support would be greatly appreciated.
Facing into a strike is a nerve racking to say the least. What is most upsetting about this strike is how nasty certain managers have become.
All line pilots, along with the majority of management pilots have been consistent in their professionalism and dedication throughout their career in Aer Lingus, as in the majority of airlines. They have all adhered to their contracts of employment, and often delivered far more above and beyond the minimum required of them.
Now, certain managers have decided to no longer respect the contracts that exist and unilaterally impose new conditions on the pilot body. The pilots have serious reservations about the safety of the operation if these imposed conditions were to be adhered to.
Seven pilots have been suspended to date without pay for refusing to accept rest periods substantially below those agreed. These pilots were acting fully in accordance with their agreements and contract of employment.
If you are concerned with what is happening here in Aer Lingus, could I ask you to assist us by e-mailing the following that are directly involved in this dispute, and expressing your concern:
[email protected]
This is the current Chief Executive of Aer Lingus, and a former pilot. He is the driving force behind this dispute.
[email protected]
The Aer Lingus' Chief Pilot and Flight Operations Manager. This is the manager that has suspended the seven pilots to date, without good reason.
[email protected]
The Aer Lingus Press Officer, who has claimed, wrongly,amongst other things, that the average Aer Lingus pilot does effectively 10 hours flying per week.
As fellow pilots your support would be greatly appreciated.
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Good luck to all the Aer Lingus pilots who are now as I write commencing strike action. We all look on with support for you because this is not only an Irish fight but a fight for pilots working conditions in every airline across the world. The fact is we are all under attack. IMHO the management at ALT are trying to compound the situation and isolate the pilots from other workers. Ride it out. You should win in the end. Let's face it, you always have before in previous disputes. The only danger I believe is that WW and others may mean business and try to break the Aer Lingus we know to be replaced by a 'cheaper' alternative. Let's hope not. Good Luck!!
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OneWorld should be re-named ThirdWorld!
All airlines are only as good as their last, safe, flight.
Sweatshop conditions DO NOT belong anywhere in aviation regardless of one's speciality/trade.
As a former Aer Lingus pilot Willie ought to know better.
I'm sure Bertie Ahern has already picked out the silver platter that WW's head will be brought to him on!
What "new" government needs this much aggro?
Cheers.
We know you're all up for it tomorrow at IALPA. Stand strong for the rest of us. Tell Amo we said Hi!
All airlines are only as good as their last, safe, flight.
Sweatshop conditions DO NOT belong anywhere in aviation regardless of one's speciality/trade.
As a former Aer Lingus pilot Willie ought to know better.
I'm sure Bertie Ahern has already picked out the silver platter that WW's head will be brought to him on!
What "new" government needs this much aggro?
Cheers.
We know you're all up for it tomorrow at IALPA. Stand strong for the rest of us. Tell Amo we said Hi!
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Interestingly, Aer Lingus Dan, the Propaganda Man, stated today on radio that the 10 hour turnaround was only for "emergencies".
There have been 7 pilots suspended without pay in the last 8 days because they have refused to work to the imposed conditions. That makes 4 emergencies, an average of one emergency every two days!!!!!!!! Who do you think you are fooling, Dan !!!!!!!!!!!
There have been 7 pilots suspended without pay in the last 8 days because they have refused to work to the imposed conditions. That makes 4 emergencies, an average of one emergency every two days!!!!!!!! Who do you think you are fooling, Dan !!!!!!!!!!!
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"is it bad PR [for companies] to talk about union breaking or something?"
CORMACSHAW,
friend with all due respect, and a little sarcasm, you are kidding aren't you???
Oneworld union busting tally to date...
LAN CHILE....SUNK
CATHAY PACIFIC....LISTING
AER LINGUS....FIRST TORPEDO INBOUND
maybe they should change the name of the group to "Oneworld without organized labor" ---harder to paint on the fuselage, but certainly truer to form.....
CORMACSHAW,
friend with all due respect, and a little sarcasm, you are kidding aren't you???
Oneworld union busting tally to date...
LAN CHILE....SUNK
CATHAY PACIFIC....LISTING
AER LINGUS....FIRST TORPEDO INBOUND
maybe they should change the name of the group to "Oneworld without organized labor" ---harder to paint on the fuselage, but certainly truer to form.....
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Q&A on the dispute
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That's not a bad summary I guess. What troubles me is there is constant reference to 'everyone else in the company' taking part in this survival plan. Well 'everyone else in the company' doesn't sit in the pointy end of a jet on a dark and stormy night trying to get the thing on the ground safely. Working hours for pilots are not the same as 'everyone else' and therefore shouldn't be compared to others.
It reminds me of a passage I read a while back, don't know who to give the credit to, I'm sure many of you have seen it.
It reminds me of a passage I read a while back, don't know who to give the credit to, I'm sure many of you have seen it.
DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS
DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS Lot has been said and written in the press
concerning pilots' salaries and
compensation. We have been told
about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others,
and various subtle and not so
subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In
light of the current situation,
please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into
my world... DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS ..How many boardrooms explode
over Long
Island Sound?
...How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
...How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
...How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
...Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his
uniform to go to! work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
...How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
...When your wife is watching TV an the program is interrupted by a news
flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what
she might hear?
There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for
mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving. THE PRICE
..I pay the price
when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the
cargo hold
...I pay the price
when a terrorist has a bone to pick
...I pay the price when loaders forget to
set the locks
...I pay the
price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly
...I pay the
price when Mother Nature decides to
shift the winds
... YOU SPEAK OF THE COST ..Ask the CEO of Value Jet the cost
of a DC-9 buried in
the Everglades...The Cost..
.! ..Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from ! the runways
at
Steward and Newark...
The Cost ...Ask Korean Airlies the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the
runway at Guam...
The Cost ...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street...
The Cost ...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian
mountain...
The Cost ...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have
been the cost of a cathay Pacific 747 with one engine alight plunging into the harbour.
How much were they worth to you that night?
Industry standard or 25 % below? The Cost....WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME,
REMEMBER
...It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before
I am catapulted over a cold,
dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed
...It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, ! miles from
the safety of the nearest
airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched
Saturday day night football
...It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated
your Christmas tree in 1989
...It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the
deserts of Iraq and brought it
to its knees, while you watched it on CNN
...It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than
your backyard, while you mowed
yours
...It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish
others sworn to protect you
...It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't
turn and run, while you watched
the flowers in your garden blossom
...It was I who buried a friend
...It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so
that you may play with your
grandchild Sir, please don! 't try to intimidate me I am not your enemy, I am
your ! asset, an asset that has
experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realise this and
there a few obstacles we can't
overcome.
DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS Lot has been said and written in the press
concerning pilots' salaries and
compensation. We have been told
about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others,
and various subtle and not so
subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In
light of the current situation,
please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into
my world... DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS ..How many boardrooms explode
over Long
Island Sound?
...How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
...How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
...How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
...Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his
uniform to go to! work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
...How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
...When your wife is watching TV an the program is interrupted by a news
flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what
she might hear?
There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for
mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving. THE PRICE
..I pay the price
when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the
cargo hold
...I pay the price
when a terrorist has a bone to pick
...I pay the price when loaders forget to
set the locks
...I pay the
price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly
...I pay the
price when Mother Nature decides to
shift the winds
... YOU SPEAK OF THE COST ..Ask the CEO of Value Jet the cost
of a DC-9 buried in
the Everglades...The Cost..
.! ..Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from ! the runways
at
Steward and Newark...
The Cost ...Ask Korean Airlies the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the
runway at Guam...
The Cost ...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street...
The Cost ...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian
mountain...
The Cost ...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have
been the cost of a cathay Pacific 747 with one engine alight plunging into the harbour.
How much were they worth to you that night?
Industry standard or 25 % below? The Cost....WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME,
REMEMBER
...It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before
I am catapulted over a cold,
dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed
...It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, ! miles from
the safety of the nearest
airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched
Saturday day night football
...It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated
your Christmas tree in 1989
...It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the
deserts of Iraq and brought it
to its knees, while you watched it on CNN
...It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than
your backyard, while you mowed
yours
...It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish
others sworn to protect you
...It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't
turn and run, while you watched
the flowers in your garden blossom
...It was I who buried a friend
...It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so
that you may play with your
grandchild Sir, please don! 't try to intimidate me I am not your enemy, I am
your ! asset, an asset that has
experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realise this and
there a few obstacles we can't
overcome.
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6feet--Tremendous post! The problem is, airline managers have figured the cost of labor versus the cost of insurance and litigation and the crashes have won.
Aer Lingus pilots--The pilots of AA are aware of your situation and realize the gravity of your fight. We are behind you 100%! I am going to check and see if AA has put on any flights to Ireland and make people aware that they are helping management break a strike.TC
Aer Lingus pilots--The pilots of AA are aware of your situation and realize the gravity of your fight. We are behind you 100%! I am going to check and see if AA has put on any flights to Ireland and make people aware that they are helping management break a strike.TC
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6feet under,
BRILLIANT POST.
now, what BALPA/ALPA/HKAOA/IALPA/ IFALPA need to do, no must do, is take out advertising space in at least 2 national daily newspapers in every country where there is a dispute/potential dispute going on and reprint this excellent article. Print it in a tabloid and a broadsheet for max coverage.
come on IFALPA, put your hand in your pocket and lets start to WIN the propaganda war for once......
folks, time to lobby IFALPA and your own unions. this could be a winner if we want it to be. or do you all really want to be working under a flag of convenience within 5 years? just look at the shipping industry.
BRILLIANT POST.
now, what BALPA/ALPA/HKAOA/IALPA/ IFALPA need to do, no must do, is take out advertising space in at least 2 national daily newspapers in every country where there is a dispute/potential dispute going on and reprint this excellent article. Print it in a tabloid and a broadsheet for max coverage.
come on IFALPA, put your hand in your pocket and lets start to WIN the propaganda war for once......
folks, time to lobby IFALPA and your own unions. this could be a winner if we want it to be. or do you all really want to be working under a flag of convenience within 5 years? just look at the shipping industry.
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posted 30th May 2002 15:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i posted this on the Ryanair 900 hour post, but they just seem intent on continuing to argue amongst themselves...........
<<hey all you FR guys and girls.
lets ALL stop this petty bickering whilst your countrymen are under attack. the AL guys need your support - you are the only ones who can effectively support their cause.
please, don't try to make hay from the Aer Lingus strike or you may well be next.
time to put up folks.........stand firm BESIDE your AL colleagues and offer them some real and public support.
can you do this for them. will you?>>
come on guys, stop fighting eachother and help out your colleagues in their time of need.
we are all just as guilty of petty bickering, but now is not the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i posted this on the Ryanair 900 hour post, but they just seem intent on continuing to argue amongst themselves...........
<<hey all you FR guys and girls.
lets ALL stop this petty bickering whilst your countrymen are under attack. the AL guys need your support - you are the only ones who can effectively support their cause.
please, don't try to make hay from the Aer Lingus strike or you may well be next.
time to put up folks.........stand firm BESIDE your AL colleagues and offer them some real and public support.
can you do this for them. will you?>>
come on guys, stop fighting eachother and help out your colleagues in their time of need.
we are all just as guilty of petty bickering, but now is not the time.
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Good post "It was I"....unfortunately ailine managers (no misspelling) count on the professionalism and personal pride pilots have in doing the job well, as they screw them up the bum at every given opportunity.....so welcome to the "de-regulated" industry...BOHICA boys
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6feetunder, what a load of crap. Most of the incidents, people bring scraped of hillsides and mountains were there because of the crews cock ups. Travelling salesman are away for weeks, die in road accidents by the dozen (and thus don't play ball with little Jimmy anymore) work all hours chasing targets and salary's way down from yours. Get real.