Aer Lingus suspends pilots & ops (merged)
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Caught a radio brodcast this morning about this topic.
The former CEO of ALT, was suspended on full pay , pending investigation of alleged sexual harrassment.
Pilots who refuse to operate below the minimum agreed rest period, are suspended without pay .
Smacks of doule standards to me.
Where are the IAA in all this. Strangely silent.
The former CEO of ALT, was suspended on full pay , pending investigation of alleged sexual harrassment.
Pilots who refuse to operate below the minimum agreed rest period, are suspended without pay .
Smacks of doule standards to me.
Where are the IAA in all this. Strangely silent.
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IAA? - The downtown office of Aer Lingus?
I presume they are doing their usual rubber stamping of the Aer Lingus Operation. Never been known to otherwise.
Anyway, why would ex-Aer Lingus managers behave differently given that they are still working for the same old employer - Mrs O'Rourke?
( I know she's gone from that Dept., but I heard they are moving her in to a back office up the road).
I presume they are doing their usual rubber stamping of the Aer Lingus Operation. Never been known to otherwise.
Anyway, why would ex-Aer Lingus managers behave differently given that they are still working for the same old employer - Mrs O'Rourke?
( I know she's gone from that Dept., but I heard they are moving her in to a back office up the road).
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Close 'em down fellas. If you cost them millions then the CEO will be the next one to go. You are lucky that you have laws that allow strike action without being sent broke.
Hasn't the management heard of AA1420 at Little Rock? What about the Irish media?
Hasn't the management heard of AA1420 at Little Rock? What about the Irish media?
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Close them down?? Guys I hope that a oneday (if it ever gets to that) stoppage wont cripple The Shamrock. Things are only getting back on its feet, but having spoken to an EI jock this morning, you really think that the majority want a strike??? Me dont think so. Where are all the "HardMen" now?
When everything is running smoothly its "Guys There has to be changes" but when theres a problem , they seem to "Quiten Down"?...... only my observation!
So is the future going to be like this?
No wonder all the booking are getting very quiet, the public have little faith in Aer Lingus....... such a pity, as the employees are dedicated, well most of them.
So Go Get the FTLs fixed, its in black n white in the ops manual, what people can and cannot do, so crewing etc cant be asking the impossible.
When everything is running smoothly its "Guys There has to be changes" but when theres a problem , they seem to "Quiten Down"?...... only my observation!
So is the future going to be like this?
No wonder all the booking are getting very quiet, the public have little faith in Aer Lingus....... such a pity, as the employees are dedicated, well most of them.
So Go Get the FTLs fixed, its in black n white in the ops manual, what people can and cannot do, so crewing etc cant be asking the impossible.
Last edited by happy-cappy; 23rd May 2002 at 15:50.
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Rest is not assured!
Can we assume the 13 hours rest mentioned is brakes on to brakes off? For the non-pilots out there this is the equivalent to leaving your 'desk' at 6pm and sitting down at your desk the next day at 7am. Rest does not take account of travel by car/bus to work/hotel. Sounds like a reasonable rule. In BA it is 12 hours which is the very minimum humane rostering limit in my opinion.
Let's imagine Aer Lingus worked to 10 hours. A pilot would be arriving at DUB at 22:00. He would complete post flight checks and await the disembarkation of the pax, getting to his car in the staff car park at say 22:30. Driving home to his sleeping family, he'd arrive at 23.15. Popping under the covers at 23:30 he'd manage to drift off immiediately. In what seemed like an instant, the alarm would go off at 05:30. He'd wash, dress and pack his suitcase whilst his family still slept, leaving the house at 06:15. He'd arrive at work at 07:00 and brief himself and the crew on the weather and flight plan for the next duty which pushed back at 08:00 (10 hours later).
That is an example if you live 45 minutes from work(Time yourself from shutting your front door to arriving at your desk on Monday!)
10 hours is dangerous! Do YOU want your pilots to have 6 hours sleep before your flight?
Let's imagine Aer Lingus worked to 10 hours. A pilot would be arriving at DUB at 22:00. He would complete post flight checks and await the disembarkation of the pax, getting to his car in the staff car park at say 22:30. Driving home to his sleeping family, he'd arrive at 23.15. Popping under the covers at 23:30 he'd manage to drift off immiediately. In what seemed like an instant, the alarm would go off at 05:30. He'd wash, dress and pack his suitcase whilst his family still slept, leaving the house at 06:15. He'd arrive at work at 07:00 and brief himself and the crew on the weather and flight plan for the next duty which pushed back at 08:00 (10 hours later).
That is an example if you live 45 minutes from work(Time yourself from shutting your front door to arriving at your desk on Monday!)
10 hours is dangerous! Do YOU want your pilots to have 6 hours sleep before your flight?
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I hate politics.
The truth is that Aer Fungus's directors and management are full of it.
They are under strick orders, from the government, to make the company "look" good in the short term for a privatisation that has been repeatedly put off due to their own incompetence.
So they are, incompetently, firing at the wrong target.
Anyone care to work out the ratio of non-flying staff to flying staff in Fungus and compare it to other comparable carriers?
Then work out the ratio of managers & directors to flying staff?
Guess who really needs to be made redundant and suffer pay cuts. Managers.
They are under strick orders, from the government, to make the company "look" good in the short term for a privatisation that has been repeatedly put off due to their own incompetence.
So they are, incompetently, firing at the wrong target.
Anyone care to work out the ratio of non-flying staff to flying staff in Fungus and compare it to other comparable carriers?
Then work out the ratio of managers & directors to flying staff?
Guess who really needs to be made redundant and suffer pay cuts. Managers.
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Got the call that two more Aer Lingus pliots are suspended. To the Chief Pilot, you should resign as against watching your flock get culled. It will haunt you for the rest of your days seeing whats going on.
Capt Bearcat
Capt Bearcat
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Henry,
I hope some decent people reading this will tell Joyce that you are responsible for at least two families around here being unsure of where their next meal is coming from.
Just something for you to think about as you play keyboards at Mass tommorow and enjoy Sunday lunch.
I hope some decent people reading this will tell Joyce that you are responsible for at least two families around here being unsure of where their next meal is coming from.
Just something for you to think about as you play keyboards at Mass tommorow and enjoy Sunday lunch.
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Ironic how the first Captain suspended recently received a letter from Lingus management commending him on his superior judgement skills.
They then suspend this fine Irish gentleman for simply recognising that 10 hours rest (potentially after an 8.5 hour two crew [non-augmented] transatlantic flight) may compromise his performance and his passengers safety (instead of the negotiated 13 hours rest).
Note, "rest" time off usually incorporates travelling to and from the airport, eating, sleeping, as well as at least one hour's additional pre-flight/departure preparation.
The FAA wouldn't allow an American carrier to do it. The CAA wouldn't allow BALPA crews to do it. Does A-L really want to find the limit of endurance? Most pilots are NOT Sir Earnest Shackleton!
Wee Willie might be an ideal choice for Mick McCarthy's job at this rate!
Despite what a prior post suggests, I'd say a 99% vote by the IALPA A-L members shows how unified they are.
Good luck,
Cheers,
They then suspend this fine Irish gentleman for simply recognising that 10 hours rest (potentially after an 8.5 hour two crew [non-augmented] transatlantic flight) may compromise his performance and his passengers safety (instead of the negotiated 13 hours rest).
Note, "rest" time off usually incorporates travelling to and from the airport, eating, sleeping, as well as at least one hour's additional pre-flight/departure preparation.
The FAA wouldn't allow an American carrier to do it. The CAA wouldn't allow BALPA crews to do it. Does A-L really want to find the limit of endurance? Most pilots are NOT Sir Earnest Shackleton!
Wee Willie might be an ideal choice for Mick McCarthy's job at this rate!
Despite what a prior post suggests, I'd say a 99% vote by the IALPA A-L members shows how unified they are.
Good luck,
Cheers,
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To those pilots that are operating on hire ins this Thursdayfor Aer Lingus, remember you are working for your collegues that are on strike who are standing up for their basic rights and that is not be treated like dogs. To the Aer Lingus Chief Pilot......you should hang your head low for what you have done to your fellow collegues. No amount of mass playing will get forgiveness.
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One could suggest that the board and assorted management be taken out to Taiwan to assist in the recovery of bodies. A classic example of a small national airline in a cosy relationship with the regulatory authority.
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4th & 5th suspended today. They landed @ 0220 last night after a 10 hour duty. No taxi to bring them to the hotel as usual. They got to bed at 0400.
Aer Lingus wanted them to be available from 1440.
They held the line.....Duty time operated+ 4 Hrs.
From the gang of 3, come on in the water is warm.
FREE THE DUBLIN 5
Aer Lingus wanted them to be available from 1440.
They held the line.....Duty time operated+ 4 Hrs.
From the gang of 3, come on in the water is warm.
FREE THE DUBLIN 5
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Rumour has it that Monarch are to operate the hire ins as the Aer Lingus pilots strike. I hope the Monarch pilots feel proud as they fly A/L out of a corner. Just remeber what Aer Lingus wants to do. They want to smash IALPA and all union activitity. This has repercussions world wide. Lan Chile were shafted in the same fashion. If A/L win every one may as well hang up there boots and let the industry go into free fall and watch safety plummet. Th
Last edited by Bearcat; 26th May 2002 at 19:54.
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Min rest in my company was 9 hours at the hotel.
Thus ground staff ensured crew transport on a "min rest.
On sign in at the hotel the captain and the airport staff agreed via telephone the new scheduled airborne time.
During their 9 hours at the hotel the crew could, if they had any energy remaining after the previous 10 hour multie sector 2 man crew duty day, shower,relax,attempt to find food for dinner/breakfast at 02.00am, take some exercise by roaming the streets at 3.00am and converse with the local criminals whilst prepareing mentally for fun day duty 2.
A further multie sector, 2 man crew 10hour duty day plus 4hour deadhead back to base.
If motivated in what remained of their precious 9 hours rest, they could also revise their manuals for fun day 3.
A mornig deadhead to simulator and another 10 hour day, or they could forget any revision and sleep off their fatigue and reenergise to become well rested prior to Fun Day 2.
In real life.... crews fell asleep on the inbound transport, signed in, and then often fell asleep on their hotel bed in full uniform, to be awoken by the wake up telephone call, or the full Arabian dawn sunlight burning into their brains as they had neglected to draw the blinds prior to collapse.
In real life crews would not take a bath on arrival at the hotel as they would fall asleep in the bath.
Funn Day 4, was the simulator check day, which concluded with further dead heading back to base (if they had seats) another 10 hour duty day.
On arrival base you were often approached by rostering staff to fly later that same day and into what should have been your off duty rest day.
A quick midnight Bah/Lhr min rest then night flight Lhr/Auh dead head Auh/Doh/Bah.
Rostering often pleaded they were short of crews when in fact they did not wish to use their available standby pilots incase a greater emergency came up.
It was my observation (not surprisingly) a continual policy of max duty min rest lead to cumulative deep fatigue.
This continual cost effective practice also caused irrational behavior in crews.
Pilots appeared to be programmed to respond to such treatment by often flying poorly on base checks in the sim, others in real life became very bad tempered and some flew a series of very poor approaches badly below their previously demonstrated ability.
These examples lost their jobs but returned to normality after a number of weeks of rest and sleep, they now fly happily for other operators or a succesful in other careers.
The unlucky ones either did one really bad approach and crashed,
or their immune systems being so depleted took sick and died, mental breakdowns,heart attacks and cancers and brain tumours.
IMHO.. The sooner the insurance industry wakes up to the fact Max duty/min rest costs them money and bans it the better.
The Caa and the Faa staff by the nature of their chosen career have no intention of personally flying such schedules.
I doubt the Caa or Faa are powerful enough to stop the abuse of max duty/ min rest infact I fully expect them to agree it to let it get worse.
Thus ground staff ensured crew transport on a "min rest.
On sign in at the hotel the captain and the airport staff agreed via telephone the new scheduled airborne time.
During their 9 hours at the hotel the crew could, if they had any energy remaining after the previous 10 hour multie sector 2 man crew duty day, shower,relax,attempt to find food for dinner/breakfast at 02.00am, take some exercise by roaming the streets at 3.00am and converse with the local criminals whilst prepareing mentally for fun day duty 2.
A further multie sector, 2 man crew 10hour duty day plus 4hour deadhead back to base.
If motivated in what remained of their precious 9 hours rest, they could also revise their manuals for fun day 3.
A mornig deadhead to simulator and another 10 hour day, or they could forget any revision and sleep off their fatigue and reenergise to become well rested prior to Fun Day 2.
In real life.... crews fell asleep on the inbound transport, signed in, and then often fell asleep on their hotel bed in full uniform, to be awoken by the wake up telephone call, or the full Arabian dawn sunlight burning into their brains as they had neglected to draw the blinds prior to collapse.
In real life crews would not take a bath on arrival at the hotel as they would fall asleep in the bath.
Funn Day 4, was the simulator check day, which concluded with further dead heading back to base (if they had seats) another 10 hour duty day.
On arrival base you were often approached by rostering staff to fly later that same day and into what should have been your off duty rest day.
A quick midnight Bah/Lhr min rest then night flight Lhr/Auh dead head Auh/Doh/Bah.
Rostering often pleaded they were short of crews when in fact they did not wish to use their available standby pilots incase a greater emergency came up.
It was my observation (not surprisingly) a continual policy of max duty min rest lead to cumulative deep fatigue.
This continual cost effective practice also caused irrational behavior in crews.
Pilots appeared to be programmed to respond to such treatment by often flying poorly on base checks in the sim, others in real life became very bad tempered and some flew a series of very poor approaches badly below their previously demonstrated ability.
These examples lost their jobs but returned to normality after a number of weeks of rest and sleep, they now fly happily for other operators or a succesful in other careers.
The unlucky ones either did one really bad approach and crashed,
or their immune systems being so depleted took sick and died, mental breakdowns,heart attacks and cancers and brain tumours.
IMHO.. The sooner the insurance industry wakes up to the fact Max duty/min rest costs them money and bans it the better.
The Caa and the Faa staff by the nature of their chosen career have no intention of personally flying such schedules.
I doubt the Caa or Faa are powerful enough to stop the abuse of max duty/ min rest infact I fully expect them to agree it to let it get worse.
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Good luck, IALPA.
How on earth does it come to be that we in the training side teach pilots safety and the operational side of the industry completely ignores the issue? It must, in the long term be to their cost.
How on earth does it come to be that we in the training side teach pilots safety and the operational side of the industry completely ignores the issue? It must, in the long term be to their cost.
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I will leave aside for now the issue of strike-busting, although I have some very strongly-held view on the issue.
Are Monarch crews operating to the same schedule as the Aer Lingus guys are expected to operate? If not, because of legality/safety issues, it would suggest that AL could save themselves a lot of aggro by admitting they have already lost.
A minimum of ten hours rest is, quite simply, not enough, and is DANGEROUS.
To attempt to rewrite a contract without the agreement of both parties is illegal.
To suspend staff for sticking to their current agreement with you is indefensible.
It's well past time that the IAA, which has shown itself time and again to be a toothless, ineffective and over-pliable rubber stamp was overhauled by the Irish Government. Failing that, Ireland should be expelled from ICAO.
Are Monarch crews operating to the same schedule as the Aer Lingus guys are expected to operate? If not, because of legality/safety issues, it would suggest that AL could save themselves a lot of aggro by admitting they have already lost.
A minimum of ten hours rest is, quite simply, not enough, and is DANGEROUS.
To attempt to rewrite a contract without the agreement of both parties is illegal.
To suspend staff for sticking to their current agreement with you is indefensible.
It's well past time that the IAA, which has shown itself time and again to be a toothless, ineffective and over-pliable rubber stamp was overhauled by the Irish Government. Failing that, Ireland should be expelled from ICAO.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Monarch, along with America West, were proud to fly their planes during the attempted union-busting dispute in Australia.
It was in fact the companies - all FOUR of them that ended up going bust!
Does ANYBODY know on which SUCCESSFUL employee-busting model Aer Lingus and Cathay management are basing their tactics?
From observation, the theory is, as yet, UNPROVEN - but costs hundreds of millions during testing.
It was in fact the companies - all FOUR of them that ended up going bust!
Does ANYBODY know on which SUCCESSFUL employee-busting model Aer Lingus and Cathay management are basing their tactics?
From observation, the theory is, as yet, UNPROVEN - but costs hundreds of millions during testing.