Jet2 evacuation at Blackpool

[BOAC]

Referring back to my post #13, may I ask the skygods how they would handle advice from the fire crew to 'get the passengers off without delay'? No steps available this side of Christmas, no obvious signs of fire to alert the c/crew.

PM reckons a full evacuation should be called and others seem to think the overwings should be used in that.

Your moves? I think I know what I would do and it would look pretty much like this one, hopefully with the same results.

A and C's post is worth a re-read.

[west lakes]

Oh looking at the photos, the aircraft would have already turned and would be backtracking

Just a knowledge gaining question.

Would the flaps normally be retracted after landing anyway? Bearing in mind if RWY 10 was in use it is a long backtrack/taxi

I would assume that as the fire service were inspecting near the engine, one or both would have been shut down, possibly also the APU.

Can the flaps be extended with no engine/APU power?

So if the answer is such, would it make sense to restart an engine to extend the flaps in an emergency?

[Capt Groper]

Beware of inexperienced ATC Tower controller being too dramatic.

I have always advised flight crew to confirm ATC visual reports of fire/smoke, from another source, when available, before rushing into an evacuation. For example; opening the windows and stretching out the window to see the wing area, fire chief on 121.60 mHz.

Case 1
In daylight conditions A/C at high landing weights and landing on short RWYs may well have smoking brakes. This smoke should not necessarily lead to an EVAC. This smoke should dissipate once the brake temps reduce. In actual fact containing to taxi, with minimal brake application, will help reduce BRK temps.

Case 2
In night time conditions the same A/C after landing will have a red glow around the centre of tyres. Smoke may not be initially seen unless using binoculars.

ATC are also suffering from a lack of experienced controllers so beware of the over descriptive / enthusiastic ATC Tower controller saying that your A/C is on fire. It may just be hot BRKS. This is especially true for larger A/C, eg A380, where an evacuation is a very serious decision.

My two bobs worth..

[Aluminium shuffler]

This is a situation where too much SOP prescription causes trouble. One airline will say that the CC decide which exits to use, another will say it's the Captain's decision. If time permits, as in this case, I'd say sod the SOP and brief the crew to use the main exits if they can see no threats but in this instance to keep the overwings shut, given they were above the potential fire area.

Then again, I am concerned that this evacuation seems as yet to have been unwarranted. I can't blame the crew if they were urged by the fire crew to evac, but evacuations are inherently dangerous and best avoided unless confidence is high that it is needed. Since the fire crews were there with their appliances, with a good close view of the smoking brakes, why could they not just monitor the situation, ready to extinguish and flame the moment it appeared and inform the crew that a fire had actually started, allowing them to evacuate at that point? It would have saved several injured passengers and a lot of maintenance work and cost in this case.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

JET2

Jet 2 had an issue yesterday at EMA also. No drama though

https://www.flickr.com/photos/plane_...k/14367781375/

[Aluminium shuffler]

The Blackpool Gazette quoted the airport spokesperson as saying the Blackpool aircraft had a hyd problem. I wonder if that information came from this other event and got mixed up, or whether there were two hyd events.

[Alycidon]

A & C states

Fortunately it would seem that all involved with this incident were wise enough to understand the difference between doing the correct thing ( SOP evacuation ) and doing the right thing ( safe evacuation).

In this case of course, the Flightcrew were no doubt aware that the fire service were inspecting the main gear and it would therefore not have been a particularly bright idea to drop Flap 40 on their heads.

[Blues&twos]

As SLF I have a question, which was alluded to earlier on in this thread. In the past I have taken the seat next to the overwing exit. I' ve thoroughly read and inwardly digested the instructions for opening the door in an emergency, one flight attendant even commenting "i see you're training yourself". Now, in a catastrophic accident I would be quite keen and happy to get that door open. But no-one has ever told me what would happen if there was, say, a potential problem on my side of the a/c when things weren't quite so obviously 'get out or die'. Are further instructions given ? Logic suggests yes, but what form would they take?

[Ballymoss]

My observations for what they're worth (No speculation or judgement)

I watched the a/c make a normal landing on 10 pleased to see it on time as I was due to travel on its next rotation to PMI. Nothing out of the ordinary going on, outbound crew were in the dep lounge awaiting its arrival on stand.

The drama unfolded out of sight, view being hidden by the twr. From the pictures I've seen the a/c was obviously well into the backtrack (cleaned up) at the point it stopped and subsequent evacuation took place.

After some time an airfield ops vehicle was noted escorting two off airport fire engines onto 10. Same again with an ambulance a few minutes later. It was only when I saw the tug and towbar followed by Jet2 engineers van trundling across the apron in an easterly direction that the old grey matter started to ponder.

A/c was eventually towed onto stand where used chutes were dumped on apron . Snippets of conversation overheard suggesting runway closed due to hydraulic fluid contamination. More than two hours after the event a quad bike with tanks on rear akin to something used by the council for kerbside weedkilling was escorted to the runway, I guess for the big clean up!

Reassuring to read SK's ramblings in the Gazette that BLK emergency procedures kicked in and worked (right down to the double deck school bus which finally brought the inbound pax to the tent in two runs)

On boarding the replacement a/c LS positioned over from LBA, I noted LJ jacked with R/H MLG inboard wheel removed. Jet2 (other than a rather quiet set of ground staff) handled it well. BLK handled it like BLK do.

As I said, just my observations.

[Piltdown Man]

PM reckons a full evacuation should be called...

I don't think I said that. What I tried to say was that we are not trained to do "half evacuations" and doing so puts you into uncharted, unpracticed and un-rehersed territory. I also went on to ask if this evacuation was necessary (with the caveat that I wasn't there and don't have the full facts). The reason behind this is that we must very careful about choosing our sources of information. For example, although a brake fire (but this appears not to be one) is an interesting event, with a properly trained fire crew and well equipped fire appliances an attendance I wonder if a full blown evacuation is required. Any such fire should be capable of being knocked out in seconds. Also, how long should a brake fire be able to burn without compromising the integrity of the cabin? I don't know and I'm not suggesting we should try and find out on line during a real incident, but this is something for the AAIB to look at. Current certification standards require a minimum time which I have not been told about. Also, what is the brake temperature limit before you have a real problem? I'm sure each aircraft is different but I also reckon fire departments have one tune "see smoke - order evacuation"

What I'm saying is that our current evacuation policies must be re-examined. Our current, old fashioned approach to this subject is out of date.

[BOAC]

doing so puts you into uncharted, unpracticed and un-rehersed territory.

- as my Fleet Manager used to say "That's why God put four bars on your shoulder"..................

[M.Mouse]

An evacuation is a serious business which often results in injuries in itself.

It is all very well second guessing the crew but any decent crew will make decisions based on the best information they have at the time.

For example what about the QANTAS B747 which slid of the end into soft ground at BKK some years ago. I don't believe any evacuation was ordered there despite partial gear collapse.

Thankfully I have never been in any situation requiring a decision to evacuate/no evacuate but as is so often the case it is not the obvious problems like a visible fire but the less clear cut problem which makes the decision fraught with difficulty for the crew.

[Thrush]

Excellent stuff! Well done to all crew involved. Tea and medals all round I hope.
A and C is spot on. Why would you hinder the fire brigade by dropping the flaps to 40...?! Cracking call by the crew and an SOP well over-ridden.

I suspect a highly experienced crew (not a wet-behind-the-ears crew!!) and a credit to Jet2.

[no sponsor]

Hydraulic fluid onto hot brakes. White smoke. Engines still running makes it look a lot worse than it is: can make it look like the engine is smoking. Had that before...

[westie]

I wonder how many pax would have looked at the safety card and listened to the safety brief rather than rudely and more importantly, dangerously, ignoring things and continuing to read their paper. I reckon the cabin crew should do a quick 20 questions before take off. Any pax not up to speed with safety procedures should be offloaded. They're a liability..... Smug .

[paully]

Not forgetting those whose IQ is so low they will be incapable of even reading the safety card let alone understand it

[SLFguy]

Not forgetting those whose IQ is so low they will be incapable of even reading the safety card let alone understand it

Are you saying the mentally handicapped should not be permitted to travel?

Wow - nice guy.

[Aluminium shuffler]

SLFguy, stop trying to pick a fight, you know exactly what he meant.

Sometimes I wish that companies would make their web-booking sites really complex, rather than strive to make them simpler, so that they'd serve as a filter. To be honest, I think it'd be a good idea if every airline had an online safety demo and test that you had to pass before being able to book tickets. The problem with onboard demos is that most pax not only ignore them, but prevent the smarter, better passengers from listening to it too. That's one of the reasons why I have the PA and service interphone selected on my CCS panel - if I hear the CC give a second plea to passengers to listen to the demo I'll add a PA. If they get more interruptions I go back on stand and start offloading the transgressors. I'm not going to let a handful of gob****s make the whole flight a battle for the CC and potentially endanger other passengers.

[enola-gay]

"Safety Brief"

I wonder how many pax would have looked at the safety card and listened to the safety brief rather than rudely and more importantly, dangerously, ignoring things and continuing to read their paper.

The "safety card and safety brief" have nothing to do with safety. Apart from the seat belt stuff which every car occupant understands, the rest is an emergency response procedure, which the cabin crew are supposed to be experts in.


Safety management has nothing to do with the nearest exit and oxygen masks. It is all to do with safe methods of work by crew, engineers, ATC and the rest.


Ask any airline safety manager and he will agree. The briefing is a CAA (and other regimes) requirement which has nothing to do with safety. I am sure that the pax on MH370 were given a "safety briefing"

[Bealzebub]

The "safety card and safety brief" have nothing to do with safety. Apart from the seat belt stuff which every car occupant understands, the rest is an emergency response procedure, which the cabin crew are supposed to be experts in.

That's right! Every car occupant understands how to operate the seat belt because they do it every single day. It is deep in their instinctive memory, They reach down the side of the seat and click the little red button. So in an emergency situation involving high stress and panic their short term memory will (if they watched the safety briefing) have been told how to operate the seat belt. Those that neglected to refresh that part of their survival toolkit will revert back to instinct and reach down the side of their seat to find the little red button....only guess what.... it isn't there! History has the names of plenty of corpses that failed to survive perfectly survivable events but were still secured in their seats. Many survivors have recounted tales of reaching instinctively for the seat belt release down the side of their seat.

Of course this is why as pilots we brief prior to every take off and landing. We are putting the important points of that brief back into short term memory and thereby beefing up the toolkit.

So when you say:

The briefing is a CAA (and other regimes) requirement which has nothing to do with safety. I am sure that the pax on MH370 were given a "safety briefing"

You are wrong! It has everything to do with safety. It may not guarantee your survival but it is designed to enhance your chances. Would you like a very long list of flight numbers where the safety briefing did contribute to a successful outcome?