Ryanair EI-DLI seriously damaged in ground incident

[despegue]

On short turnarounds, reverse thrust is used more prominently as to keep the temp. Of the brakes down.
As a result, even turnarounds of less than 30 minutes are no problem brake temp. wise on B737.

[parabellum]

The temp. gauges worked well on the B747-400 and I would have thought the technology was similar on the later B737 models?

[rottenray]

I quoted 8 hours which is given by boeing for a fully charge accumulator.
As a captain,the accumulator must be checked before shutting down the engines,it is airmanship and in my current Airline,SOP.

I seriously hope you pilot better than you english.

How do you check the accumulator, and if it isn't at the 3k psi, what do you do? Not shut down the engines?

[b4dger]

Brake cooling!! Is that when i get briefed through the table in the PFI section with all the little calculations up and down!! Just to have the PF then jump on the brakes a touchdown to make that first exit!!

[Yeelep]

Not sure about your DC9 but the 737 accumulator at 3000 psi provides at least 8 hours of brake pressure then well ,..you got the picture

Eight hours is a minimum acceptable, there are alot of 737's out there that aren't acceptable in this regard.

As a captain,the accumulator must be checked before shutting down the engines,it is airmanship and in my current Airline,SOP.

I would also be curious how the accumulator is being checked. Is it just to check for a complete lack of nitrogen precharge due to external leakage?

[AtomKraft]

What's bad for Ryanair, is good for the rest of aviation.

[llondel]

According to FR24 her last movement was Rome Ciampino

According to that picture, her last movement was backwards across the tarmac.

How does one stop an aircraft rolling backwards from outside, or is it just a case of get the camera phone out for the inevitable Youtube video? I assume any attempt to put something in the way of the wheels is likely to result in the tail hitting the floor if it is in any way successful in slowing it down.

[LNIDA]

I hear on the vine that another arriving FR landed at the same airport only to find that the ground handling agent had ceased trading and they could not off load the pax...not agent no chocks???

[sky9]

It was company policy in my airline for there to be chocks on the main wheels and nose wheel when an aircraft was left unattended on an Apron that wasn't flat or there was wind forecast.

Why do we have to keep relearning the same old lessons?

[Aluminium shuffler]

llondel, I'd put chocks behind the front wheels - chocking the rear could tip the aircraft like you said. I don't know if it could cause any damage to the nose gear or its mountings, but it should be cheaper to inspect and repair than the sort of damage that would occur if a runaway aircraft hits something, especially another aircraft or people. It's still possible that the nose wheels would bounce on the chocks and tip the aircraft anyway. But better to do something than nothing, if just to protect people on the apron and in any vehicle or structure the aircraft might hit.

If it was rolling forwards, you could chock the main gear without worry about airframe damage.

[captplaystation]

It isn't their newest, but by no means their oldest. They are still flogging a couple around from Autumn 2002 when I joined (oldest one being EI-DAD if I am not mistaken)

I am guessing the "owners" are offering very "attractive" leasing rates for these ones. :roll eyes:



Edited to say, just did my "plane-spotting" bit & the oldest is EI-DAC delivered 02/12/2002 with 40 aircraft in the fleet older than this dented example we are discussing.

[Sober Lark]

Ryanair have asked Groundcare for a statement but who actually investigates an incident of this type and are the findings ever published?

[Aluminium shuffler]

I would imagine it would primarily be the Italian accident investigators, given the location, but in conjunction with the Irish AAIU.

[aerolearner]

Strictly speaking, an air safety investigation wouldn't be compulsory, since the relevant regulation (REGULATION (EU) No 996/2010) mentions an obligation to investigate only in case of accidents and serious accidents. In the definition of these categories, it is specified that an accident/serious incident is an occurence that

takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked.

An empty aircraft would not be included.

However the same REGULATION (EU) No 996/2010 states that...

Safety investigation authorities may decide to investigate incidents other than [accidents and serious incidents] in accordance with the national legislation of the Member States, when they expect to draw safety lessons from them.

So far, no information has appeared on the Italian ANSV website. Usually they publish a short notice when a new investigation is launched.

[Aluminium shuffler]

To be fair, there isn't much to be investigated - the ground service contractor failed to chock the aircraft. The RYR insurers will go after them for costs, and Italian prosecutors may go after them for negligence, but that doesn't need a costly AAIU/B type investigation as the cause is plain to see.

[captplaystation]

Don't expect ANSV to publish anything soon. The last disagreement between RYR & CIA was a bit more serious. . . yet, somehow, nothing has ever been published 6 yrs later.

I believe there are laws/conventions to be followed including an annual update on the anniversary of the accident, until the final report has been released. . wonder where they all went then.

[parabellum]

Pretty sure most of Ryanair's insurance will be via the London market, possibly a reinsurance from an Irish underwriter. If this is the case then I would expect that Lloyds Aviation and/or Airclaims, quite possibly both, will have sent their surveyors to properly assess the damage, these reports will be available to Ryanair and Ryanair has probably already been paid, (minus the agreed policy deductible).


I imagine it will require a positive statement from a recognised authority, that both parties recognise, stating precisely the cause and who is to blame, before Ryanair underwriters can claim from the handling agents underwriters, if the agents are found to be in the wrong. One has to hope the agents had paid their premiums!

[Skyjob]

parabellum: The temp. gauges worked well on the B747-400 and I would have thought the technology was similar on the later B737 models?

They work well on the 737 like on the 747.
Alas on both types the physics of the system are the limitation.

Technical expanded rubbish explanation in layman's terms:
In order to read the energy on the outside surface plate of the sensor facing stator which incurs no heating during the stop (the one we can touch during a turnaround), one must wait a predetermined time for the heat generated from the friction side of the same stator to reach the measurable surface, as the heat needs time to 'travel' from the hot side to the cool side when the heat dissipates through the stator material.
The brake stack itself is containing the brake energy absorbed in the form of heat, but the heat cannot be measured until it reaches the measurable surface of the most outward stator. This takes, according to the 737 QRH, 10-15 minutes, as this is the published time after which to read the brake temperature gauges.

Now put yourself in a 737 with a scheduled turnaround time of 25 minutes, of which the crew must wait 10-15 before reading the gauges to establish if and how long the brakes must be released for. The crew is limited by the time constraint...

Thus for operators who fly very short turn around times the BTMS is actually not a desirable option to have on board as it may subsequently delay the departure halfway through a turn around.

A better way to control the brake energy absorption by such airlines is determining a safe configuration which does not require any brake cooling at all times; in case of a 65 tons landing 737 with a Flap 30 and Autobrake 2 setting when using 2nd detent reverse, even with a 10 knot tailwind, this would be achieved (the former standard flap landing policy in the Irish low cost until Limoges). Alas this configuration does not allow for short runways, wet runways requiring additional lengths and a few more where Autobrake 3 is to be used to ensure a safe stop.

When Autobrake 3 would be required thus a (mandatory) selection of Flap 40 would be wise as this requires 12% less energy to be absorbed from the same landing aircraft, but sometimes conditions (gusty winds) prevent this configuration thus a mandate as such would be impossible.

In all cases above the primary requirement and clue in accurate brake energy management lies in the principles of good and appropriate use of Autobrake and Reverse thrust by the crew. Like highlighted by a previous author, if crew override the auto brake function at 100 knots and do not use 2nd detent reverse thrust then all planning calculations go out the window.

Maybe the call for "SPEEDBRAKES UP" could be changed into "SPEEDBRAKES UP, 1xx knots" calling out the Groundspeed as indicated on the ND, thus then being able to use it after arrival on stand by the crew to determine most accurately, having taken into account the configuration and selections/actions made during the remainder of the landing roll, to determine energy absorption of the heat stack, enabling a cooling time requirement to be calculated and executed from the start of the 25 minutes turn around about to begin.

[mad_jock]

So you have to wonder did CIA ground handlers remove the chocks from this one, perhaps to use on another arrival?

I would put money on that.

I have left an aircraft with chocks in and returned to find them gone before.

Its not only in Italy it happens, its happen more than comfortable in the UK as well.

We even had a set on the aircraft stolen from under the tyres. I presume because there was a 50 euro chock rental fee which we had said no thanks we will use are own.

[RVF750]

I must admit my favourite setting to keep the brakes cool is autobrake off and flap 40. landing 3000ft up on a hot day on a military runway with 30 minute turns is no problem, as I don't touch the brakes until close to 60kts.


Simples.....