Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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You will find the original source of the waypoints Vampi, Gival and Igrex in this Reuters article, only quoting "sources".
Exclusive: Radar data suggests missing Malaysia plane deliberately flown way off course - sources | Reuters
But it does tie in with the Malaysian Prime Minister's address on STurday in which he stated that Malaysian primary radar tracked the plane to a point north west of the Malacca Strait.
Today the New StrIts Times gives the last tracked position as being 320km north west of Penang.
MISSING MH370: 'Plane flew low to avoid radar' - General - New Straits Times
Hope this helps.
Exclusive: Radar data suggests missing Malaysia plane deliberately flown way off course - sources | Reuters
But it does tie in with the Malaysian Prime Minister's address on STurday in which he stated that Malaysian primary radar tracked the plane to a point north west of the Malacca Strait.
Today the New StrIts Times gives the last tracked position as being 320km north west of Penang.
MISSING MH370: 'Plane flew low to avoid radar' - General - New Straits Times
Hope this helps.
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Taliban issues statement re: MH370
Taliban issues statement re: MH370
Zabihullah Mujahid, a spokesman for the Taliban in Afghanistan, who are seeking to oust foreign troops and set up an Islamic state, said the missing plane had nothing to do with them.
"It happened outside Afghanistan and you can see that even countries with very advanced equipment and facilities cannot figure out where it went," he said. "So we also do not have any information as it is an external issue."
A commander with the Pakistani Taliban, a separate entity fighting the Pakistani government, said the fragmented group could only dream about such an operation.
"We wish we had an opportunity to hijack such a plane," he told Reuters by telephone from the lawless North Waziristan region.
SOURCE
Malaysia Airlines MH370 live: 26 countries now involved in search - Telegraph
Zabihullah Mujahid, a spokesman for the Taliban in Afghanistan, who are seeking to oust foreign troops and set up an Islamic state, said the missing plane had nothing to do with them.
"It happened outside Afghanistan and you can see that even countries with very advanced equipment and facilities cannot figure out where it went," he said. "So we also do not have any information as it is an external issue."
A commander with the Pakistani Taliban, a separate entity fighting the Pakistani government, said the fragmented group could only dream about such an operation.
"We wish we had an opportunity to hijack such a plane," he told Reuters by telephone from the lawless North Waziristan region.
SOURCE
Malaysia Airlines MH370 live: 26 countries now involved in search - Telegraph
DOVE
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ELT
I understand that the ELT is practically mute if it’s underwater.
If it is so, also because of this ugly episode (it's not the first), from which we must learn something, is it not possible to invent something that can transmit the emergency message and its location even after a ditching?
I think of a panel that breaks down when immersed in salt water and so allowing the expulsion and emersion of the device.
IMO
DOVE
If it is so, also because of this ugly episode (it's not the first), from which we must learn something, is it not possible to invent something that can transmit the emergency message and its location even after a ditching?
I think of a panel that breaks down when immersed in salt water and so allowing the expulsion and emersion of the device.
IMO
DOVE
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Maybe?
MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times
MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times
MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca
Read more: MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times
Read more: MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times MISSING MH370: Debris found at Straits of Malacca - Latest - New Straits Times
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on the topic of mobile phones and why no apparent contact to/from any of them:
If you set up an open femtocell in the aircraft, would that not capture all the mobiles on board, which would all see it as their nearest and most powerful "cell tower". Any call from such a mobile would go nowhere other than the femtocell. And since mobiles wind their RF down to the minimum required, with a strong local cell tower signal they would all be on minimum RF power.
(For the record, I am not an aviation professional, nor am I a mobile phone specialist)
If you set up an open femtocell in the aircraft, would that not capture all the mobiles on board, which would all see it as their nearest and most powerful "cell tower". Any call from such a mobile would go nowhere other than the femtocell. And since mobiles wind their RF down to the minimum required, with a strong local cell tower signal they would all be on minimum RF power.
(For the record, I am not an aviation professional, nor am I a mobile phone specialist)
Any chance we can get clarification on the Inmarsat ping business as requested above? Since I understand that a SATCOM service for a cars was not subscribed to then neither the aircraft nor the satellite would be motivated to ping so presumably this relates to voice comms. Unless a time stamp is sent I do not see how a handshake initiated by the a/c would allow signal transit time to be calculated by the satellite.
On another issue is it now understood that the acars shutdown was not the tidy logging off procedure believed up to a few pages back.
On another issue would the a/c have been visible to Vietnam ATC at the time of last voice message.
And finally, following normal protocol, when would first voice contact have been expected with Viet ATC in relation to the time of the OK roger message?
Thank you for your patience!
On another issue is it now understood that the acars shutdown was not the tidy logging off procedure believed up to a few pages back.
On another issue would the a/c have been visible to Vietnam ATC at the time of last voice message.
And finally, following normal protocol, when would first voice contact have been expected with Viet ATC in relation to the time of the OK roger message?
Thank you for your patience!
EDIT:
?? Just did a search, and find that I cannot dig up any of his posts. He made quite a few about hearing Vietnam ATC calling for and getting no response from MH370, as he was in the air and on that freq at the time.
Don't know what to make of this.
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I understand that the ELT is practically mute if it’s underwater.
If it is so, also because of this ugly episode (it's not the first), from which we must learn something, is it not possible to invent something that can transmit the emergency message and its location even after a ditching?
I think of a panel that breaks down when immersed in salt water and so allowing the expulsion and emersion of the device.
IMO
DOVE
If it is so, also because of this ugly episode (it's not the first), from which we must learn something, is it not possible to invent something that can transmit the emergency message and its location even after a ditching?
I think of a panel that breaks down when immersed in salt water and so allowing the expulsion and emersion of the device.
IMO
DOVE
Thanks re ATC. I read those posts relating to what another flight heard. What I don't know is whether ATC witnessed them disappear or whether they were operating by the clock only.
Re ELT. EM waves are going nowhere through water at that frequency so the thing would have to escape and swim to the surface.
Re ELT. EM waves are going nowhere through water at that frequency so the thing would have to escape and swim to the surface.
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RE FLOATING ELTs:
These are common on boats. They break loose if submerged and come to the surface and activate themselves.
If you read the tech log, it is possible to get something like this for airplanes but not common.
These are common on boats. They break loose if submerged and come to the surface and activate themselves.
If you read the tech log, it is possible to get something like this for airplanes but not common.
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Radar
On radar:
It seems to me that if a passenger aircraft is flying on established routes and at established flight levels with its transponder deactivated, provided it does not trespass into secure airspace, it will be ignored by military radar and invisible to ATC. This is rather worrying if I am correct.
On flight deck security. Surely it has to be improved now:
1. additional door to prevent anyone following crew through the single door when open i.e. an airlock type system
2. three flight crew, not just two, so that nobody is left alone on the flight deck while someone leaves for a break. The third member could be security instead of pilot.
It seems to me that if a passenger aircraft is flying on established routes and at established flight levels with its transponder deactivated, provided it does not trespass into secure airspace, it will be ignored by military radar and invisible to ATC. This is rather worrying if I am correct.
On flight deck security. Surely it has to be improved now:
1. additional door to prevent anyone following crew through the single door when open i.e. an airlock type system
2. three flight crew, not just two, so that nobody is left alone on the flight deck while someone leaves for a break. The third member could be security instead of pilot.
Last edited by GunpowderPlod; 17th Mar 2014 at 15:53. Reason: additional material
Originally Posted by oldoberon
Saw this idea somewhere, water soluble bags of highly concentrated fluorescent dye in wings and cargo holds,. I liked it because they were passive, ie no batteries or activation needed
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Re: "Unless a time stamp is sent I do not see how a handshake initiated by the a/c would allow signal transit time to be calculated by the satellite"
The expert interviewed on CNN clearly said that at a regulated time interval (1 hour?) the satellite initiates the handshake attempt with a faint ping something like " are you there, got anything for me", and seems to id the a/c is same handprint as last time, and how far way it is based upon ping return time.
IE; The a/c did not initiate the pings we are hearing about.
The expert interviewed on CNN clearly said that at a regulated time interval (1 hour?) the satellite initiates the handshake attempt with a faint ping something like " are you there, got anything for me", and seems to id the a/c is same handprint as last time, and how far way it is based upon ping return time.
IE; The a/c did not initiate the pings we are hearing about.
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floatation water activated ELts are fitted to all PAX aircraft
Someone has already posted on this aircraft there was one on one of the pax doors (may have been all pax doors), BUT you have to manually release them from their stowage,
Someone has already posted on this aircraft there was one on one of the pax doors (may have been all pax doors), BUT you have to manually release them from their stowage,
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The ELT is embedded in a foam floatation device. It does, however, need to get free of the hull in the event of an accident as they are normally stowed within the hull space!
fluorescent dye is excellent BUT it is a short term solution as it does disperse very quickly dependant upon sea state, swell and wind.
There is a sonar locator beacon which will activate when submerged. This is normally good for 30+ days dependant upon water temperature and depth. The detection range for this device is also dependant upon depth, salinity and the isothermal properties of the water (layering). Depending upon the sensitivity of the detecting equipment (read the military won't tell you) the detectable range of the sonar locator beacon can be huge.
fluorescent dye is excellent BUT it is a short term solution as it does disperse very quickly dependant upon sea state, swell and wind.
There is a sonar locator beacon which will activate when submerged. This is normally good for 30+ days dependant upon water temperature and depth. The detection range for this device is also dependant upon depth, salinity and the isothermal properties of the water (layering). Depending upon the sensitivity of the detecting equipment (read the military won't tell you) the detectable range of the sonar locator beacon can be huge.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GPP, potentially correct. Except that as a non-transponder it will not have a 'friendly' track ID and the IDRO will contact the ATC to confirm identity if the track is inbound. In this case, before the turn back it would have excited no interest from the Malaysian AD.
Lazy posters...
If you want to keep posting the same questions over and over, then this is going nowhere fast... how about you READ the THREAD before posting questions that have been answered over and over and over and over....
1) Rig worker - was 370 miles from the last reported position... you figure out where that puts the horizon even accounting for the aircraft being at 35Kft.... Also the fact that nothing more from the alleged source makes this even less believable.
2) Pings... The SATCOM sub-system is entirely SEPARATE from the ACARS system. The SATCOM terminal is simply one of the available transmission systems fitted to the aircraft. Just as the voice transmissions can be sent via HF, VHF, or SAT, so can ACARS messages. Therefore the act of deselecting ACARS does nothing the SATCOM transceiver itself. The INMARSAT system is effectively maintaining a "stay-alive" connection to the aircraft. The fact that the ACARS system was not subscribed to the SATCOM service isn't really relevant.
1) Rig worker - was 370 miles from the last reported position... you figure out where that puts the horizon even accounting for the aircraft being at 35Kft.... Also the fact that nothing more from the alleged source makes this even less believable.
2) Pings... The SATCOM sub-system is entirely SEPARATE from the ACARS system. The SATCOM terminal is simply one of the available transmission systems fitted to the aircraft. Just as the voice transmissions can be sent via HF, VHF, or SAT, so can ACARS messages. Therefore the act of deselecting ACARS does nothing the SATCOM transceiver itself. The INMARSAT system is effectively maintaining a "stay-alive" connection to the aircraft. The fact that the ACARS system was not subscribed to the SATCOM service isn't really relevant.
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Mentioned before - ejectable, floating ELT
This is from the Tech Log thread - the ejectable, floating ELT called a Crash Position Indicator (CPI) has been around since WWIi. CPIs have fitted to helicopters, transport aircraft through the Tornado and Starfighter. The ELT is fitted into a floating "tumbling airfoil" and can contain a CVR/FDR.
Here's an example for the USAF C-141 original CPI, including multiple damage sensors throughout the aircraft and provision for a tape recorder for the CVR AN/URT-26 Crash Position Indicator
Other offshore industry and military examples can be found on Google.
The extra cost over ELTs made the CPI unpalatable for regulators and airlines, but that may change...with modern electronics it can be a very much smaller device using the 406Mhz technology and solid-state memory for FDR/CVR:
http://www.hr-smith.com/images/stories/503-CPI.pdf
Here's an example for the USAF C-141 original CPI, including multiple damage sensors throughout the aircraft and provision for a tape recorder for the CVR AN/URT-26 Crash Position Indicator
Other offshore industry and military examples can be found on Google.
The extra cost over ELTs made the CPI unpalatable for regulators and airlines, but that may change...with modern electronics it can be a very much smaller device using the 406Mhz technology and solid-state memory for FDR/CVR:
http://www.hr-smith.com/images/stories/503-CPI.pdf
Possible motive
1. Kidnap passengers as hostages? You would have to know that the pax on this flight were typically Chinese (most) and Malaysian. I can't imagine China would be keen to negotiate, nor to facilitate negotiations by the relatives. So this would seem a very poor choice of flight for this purpose.
2. Theft of cargo? For this to work, you would need accomplices and logistics at other end. This takes time to set up. How much notice would you have of an upcoming valuable shipment? Presumably not enough to get yourself onto that flight and organise the other end. Could it have been a spur of the moment opportunistic theft? Possibly. But the details we have suggest the reversal of course (and other things) was done very skilfully, and this suggests detailed planning. And you would still have to set up the other end. So theft seems unlikely.
3. Steal plane for some future terrorist plot? This is probably the most likely scenario for the "northern corridor." However, you would imagine the customer was most likely in the Middle East. You would also imagine the customer would like his plane stolen with the least chance of things going wrong. So why steal a plane heading east, and then have to reverse course and avoid radar of Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia etc? There are plenty of MAS flights from KL heading to Europe or Middle East. Why not steal one of these flights? You could even cross India (legally) and then disappear - which would give you much greater range (Pakistan or Iran). For ME terrorists, an added bonus of a Europe bound flight would be a greater number of westerners. Do we know if the crew flew other routes?
4. "Southern corridor" scenario. Hard to think of a reason other than suicide and disappear. If this happened, the guy didn't want anyone to know for sure - he could have left a note, or even come up on the radio and announced his intention. Nor did he want the plane found. Reverses course and possibly flies low to avoid primary radar - unlike the customer in option 3 who has nothing to gain by playing games with radar, it is possible the pilot here enjoys the challenge of defeating radar. He then heads NW up Straits of Malacca, before turning SW when he is sure he is out of primary radar coverage. Why turn NW first? Well he does not want to be found. If he is picked up by primary radar, heading NW he looks like lots of other traffic heading out of KL or Singapore. If he went immediately SW over Malaysia and then Sumatra, this would seem unusual if anyone did see him on primary radar.
2. Theft of cargo? For this to work, you would need accomplices and logistics at other end. This takes time to set up. How much notice would you have of an upcoming valuable shipment? Presumably not enough to get yourself onto that flight and organise the other end. Could it have been a spur of the moment opportunistic theft? Possibly. But the details we have suggest the reversal of course (and other things) was done very skilfully, and this suggests detailed planning. And you would still have to set up the other end. So theft seems unlikely.
3. Steal plane for some future terrorist plot? This is probably the most likely scenario for the "northern corridor." However, you would imagine the customer was most likely in the Middle East. You would also imagine the customer would like his plane stolen with the least chance of things going wrong. So why steal a plane heading east, and then have to reverse course and avoid radar of Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia etc? There are plenty of MAS flights from KL heading to Europe or Middle East. Why not steal one of these flights? You could even cross India (legally) and then disappear - which would give you much greater range (Pakistan or Iran). For ME terrorists, an added bonus of a Europe bound flight would be a greater number of westerners. Do we know if the crew flew other routes?
4. "Southern corridor" scenario. Hard to think of a reason other than suicide and disappear. If this happened, the guy didn't want anyone to know for sure - he could have left a note, or even come up on the radio and announced his intention. Nor did he want the plane found. Reverses course and possibly flies low to avoid primary radar - unlike the customer in option 3 who has nothing to gain by playing games with radar, it is possible the pilot here enjoys the challenge of defeating radar. He then heads NW up Straits of Malacca, before turning SW when he is sure he is out of primary radar coverage. Why turn NW first? Well he does not want to be found. If he is picked up by primary radar, heading NW he looks like lots of other traffic heading out of KL or Singapore. If he went immediately SW over Malaysia and then Sumatra, this would seem unusual if anyone did see him on primary radar.
Last edited by slats11; 17th Mar 2014 at 16:41.
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Regarding other water sources yes, but they can be a lifed item or salt water soluble ( not good for the great lakes).
Regarding dispersal missed out that the idea was they were a gel to slow down the release and dispersal.
Still neither of you (like me) ruled them out as a good passive aid .
Still a place in the world for low tech! KISS keep it simple.
Last edited by oldoberon; 17th Mar 2014 at 16:10. Reason: to add last sentence