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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:37
  #4041 (permalink)  
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A lot of weight is indeed being put on the sat pings. I hope the engineers have thoroughly checked for latency issues or time stamp errors to ensure everything is as it seems. There are a lot of protocol levels in that system.
I am no satellite expert however I know that GPS satellite engineers adjust for the effects of the warping of space and time due to earths gravitational field. So looking at the contents of the satellite ping packet for a time stamp would be trivial for professional satellite engineers.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:38
  #4042 (permalink)  
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Following thread closely since first 50 pages, but haven't seen mention of what exactly the Malaysian military did when they were tracking this a/c on their radar, now we know they were tracking it?

I remember v early on an official during a presser said they don't scramble jets normally to civilian a/c because they are not normally deemed a threat. This was said, however, before they released the information that they had been tracking the a/c by military radar. Obviously people may be overstating the "on call" capabilities of Malay airforce in the middle of the night. But surely, 4 hours after lost contact, unidentified a/c spotted on military radar- they must have done something?

And how did they know from the radar that it was MH370, in the first place?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:43
  #4043 (permalink)  
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HF radio best for communication

JR Barrett's point (post 4068) on selective use of the HF Radio for communication is very helpful if we're running with the theory of the biggest heist ever (cargo of gold?) or some form of sinister hijack for future purposes (post 4075).

We need to remember that no one had any idea of the concept of 9/11 before it happened. Truth can sometimes be more astonishing than fiction.

Last edited by Lorimer; 15th Mar 2014 at 18:46. Reason: additional reference
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:43
  #4044 (permalink)  
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ANA1936, thanks very much for the circles.

Based on it being on a point somewhere along the northern arc,

up through Bangladesh, then
Sikkim, then
Tibet, then
into the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region
descending over Taklamakan Desert
landing, crashing near Kalpin County
before the Kyrgyzstan border
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:51
  #4045 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure if has been mentioned somewhere (I have read a lot of posts, but not them all) but with regards to the conversation about where the plane might have gone/might be

It most likely went South
, not North


The plane made what is seemingly extremely calculated moves to avoid radar (cutting communication at handover, flying under radar over land, picking path between radar, etc)

The plane was still in the air (0811) when the search was already underway. Everyone in the surrounding area would have been alerted at that time

There is no possible way the US hasn't requested the data for any unidentified planes being picked up on the surrounding countries radar systems

There are enough satellite pings to determine likely locations where the plane would have been pinged but stayed off radar the entire time it was in flight.

The US has to know that the likelihood is it is South, where this 'non-radar contact, but pinged' flight is much more possible than it would have been over land with everyone searching. That doesn't mean it couldn't have, but likelihood...
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:53
  #4046 (permalink)  
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It most likely went South,
I agree. Plus the search along the northern route (land) will be much easier to check and rule out.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 18:59
  #4047 (permalink)  
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Planned and unplanned attempts but is turning the aircraft round and flying in the opposite direction for many hours until it ran out of fuel typical suicidal planning behaviour? I don't think it is.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:01
  #4048 (permalink)  
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fish Uyghur Terrorists?

Could it be Uyghur related terrorism against China?

They've tried it in the past (actually 2 years ago) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianji...es_Flight_7554

And the recent 29 stabbing deaths at a Chinese train station was Uyghur related.

This would make sense if the large Chinese population onboard and the plane's destination were a factor. Or it could be a smokescreen by someone for some other purpose.

The uptick in Uyghur terrorism in the past few years should raise some questions though, in relation to this incident.

You heard it here first!

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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:03
  #4049 (permalink)  
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satcom question

As most birds are "bent pipes" and generally connect the incoming RF signal to an onboard transmitter on a coresponding downlink frequency, any doppler shift present in the uplink one should be present in the downlink one. Now the trigonometry suggests a tiny or even undetectable doppler shift, but this would be larger at the extremes of a beam's footprint. Any thoughts?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:04
  #4050 (permalink)  
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Whats the big deal about the non standard R/T terminology? seriously? routine usage of nonstandard words in locally acceptable language is a norm.... Namaste is used in Indian airspace by all airlines... as is bye or Khuda Hafiz in other areas.... whats the big deal?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:04
  #4051 (permalink)  
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is this right - in simple terms for many

Satcom are maybe providing enough satellite fixes to establish where this aircraft went - BUT you need 3 satellite fixes on each ping given off for an accurate fix - seems they only have 2 on many of them - The ACARS was switched off to SEND data but the system stays on and still searches for satellites and thus gives off its location to satellites

Satellites picked up a signal from the B777 at 08.11 local time some 7 hours after the transponder was switched off but could not get an accurate 3 point SAT fix -
That is why now there are 2 corridor areas of search because the satellites only got partial position without the 3 fixes -
so they are looking up towards the Bay of Bengal and Kazakhstan and south west down towards the Indian ocean -
at this point 7 hours on in daylight, the fuel remaining would be very low.

(unless more fuel had been loaded on deliberately at KUL)

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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:06
  #4052 (permalink)  
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If it had been flying 7 hours between loss of contact and the ping on the arc, the southern arc would seem too close wouldn't it? Assuming it had been flying in a straight line it could easily have gone as far as Perth?? The far end of the Northern Arc makes more sense time wise?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:06
  #4053 (permalink)  
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There is no possible way the US hasn't requested the data for any unidentified planes being picked up on the surrounding countries radar systems
I'm sure that's true, but it depends on there actually being data to supply, I would think? Given what we've learned from all this, there seems to be patchy alertness and coverage in that part of the world. Anecdotal evidence is that Myanmar can be overflown without challenge.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:07
  #4054 (permalink)  
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However, it is really sloppy software to generate superfluous pings. If there is not data to transmit, then there is no reason to waste battery power and bandwith to see which server could take your call if you had a payload to send, like a sign on request.
Not if you look at it from the standpoint of the vendor who is selling a subscription service to monitor engine data during cruise. They would want the connection to be robust and available without the customer having to configure anything if they did purchase the package. A check ping every 30 mins is not overkill in this case. The ping also includes the aircraft's digital unique identifier (like a MAC address), so the vendor could activate the service instantly from their server side.

But it sounds like very few folks were aware of the pinging--it was kinda hidden away in the software.

Edit: The pings originate from the Inmarsat satellite system ACARS server, not from the ACARS software on the plane and are sent hourly to check the Satcom connection.

Last edited by rampstriker; 17th Mar 2014 at 17:44. Reason: Clarification
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:07
  #4055 (permalink)  
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Yes, commercial line pilots use "Roger that". All the time. ATC and commercial pilots say it regularly.

AirDisaster.Com: Air Traffic Control Transcript: American 587
Aviation Safety Network > Accident investigation > CVR / FDR > Transcripts > ATC transcript Thai Airways Flight 261 -
Aviation Safety Network > Accident investigation > CVR / FDR > Transcripts > ATC transcript Swissair Flight 111 - 02 SEP 1998
Comms Transcript
Aviation Safety Network > Accident investigation > CVR / FDR > Transcripts > Singapore Airlines Flight 006 - 31 OCT 2000
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:08
  #4056 (permalink)  
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The range for the first ping after last radar contact can show which direction is most likely. The range of that arc will put the aircraft either closer or further away from the radar that had previously tracked them.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:12
  #4057 (permalink)  
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Which airfields, capable of taking a 777 are there in Turkmenistan etc?
Suppose the hijackers just want the aircraft?
How likely is it that the aircraft could make it to a former Russian Republic airfield and land without comment from locals? Where would it have been dark at points near maximum endurance?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:13
  #4058 (permalink)  
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Flight MH370 Disintergrated at FL350 at last Transponder report

It appears that most of the worlds journalists and managers of the search have failed to do any "air of reality"checks with this story. The searchers have failed to think logically with the exception of the Chinese Government and the Vietnamese Government who have done an incredible job and who both deserve an honourable mention for their accurate reporting.

The Transponder and Flight Data STOPPED indicating a catastrophic explosion. The WRECKAGE DEBRIS was repeatedly observed, photographed and provided to searchers. Boats arriving could not find it. Those Photographs did not LIE, they were not fabricated. They are REAL EVIDENCE.

Oil Rig Worker Michael McKay was the First and Only Eye Witness to the explosion and his "Bearing confirms that it was along the flight path near where the Transponder Stopped.

The Satelite "PINGING" by Imarasat shows it ENDED in the same area as where the Transponder Stopped.

The problem is, Imarsat information has got the TIME wrong, it was NOT AFTER the accident time but AT the accident time the last reported "PING" was heard.

There appears to be a miscalculation of time or , the FL MH370 flew in circles in the same area for 7.5 hours and then crashed in the same area.

Imarsat is not showing an accurate map. The map shown is misleading and fails to allow for known errors that if allowed for place the last signal in the same area.

The Primary radar is dubious, and does not show clear evidence to support any flight away from the last known position.

There is NO evidence to support a highjacking.

Any search manager should take a close look at that Imarsat informatio, demand to see video or stills of that primary radar BEFORE assuming the "Highjack" theory and or wasting many millions of dollars searching in any area OTHER THAN

an Underwater search in the Immediate area after the transponder stopped.

At around 500 Knots, the debris will have travelled about 5 miles forward of the last known position along the Planned Flight Path and it is there that the heavy wreckage will be found.

The floating Debris has moved at about 50 miles a day and some maritime science needs to be used to determine from wind and currents since the crash time as to where that debris might be now.

The world owes an apology to the Governments of China and Vietnam for their incredible work to date and for the arrogance of the west to ignore their vital evidence.

Dito for Michael McKay who is the Sole Witness to this mid-air explosion.

The US navy needs to take its own appraisal of the above information and start an

underwater search centered on 5 nm ahead of the last known Transponder position on the Flight Path Track.

Image of debris


Imarsat image of range of error
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:13
  #4059 (permalink)  
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'why has no one come forward if it is terrorism'

Because look how much people are taking about it, speculating, how focused the world is on it. Terrorists love publicity and this is giving to them in bucket loads even if the actual people haven't announced themselves.

That is of course assume it is an act of terror. Personally I'm subscribing to the idea of 'we don't know and won't know until we have more evidence' side.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 19:13
  #4060 (permalink)  
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Planned and unplanned attempts but is turning the aircraft round and flying in the opposite direction for many hours until it ran out of fuel typical suicidal planning behaviour? I don't think it is.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as 'typical suicide planning behaviour'. From my own exposure to the subject, suicides can get themselves 'into position' and then take a long time to commit themselves to the final act. And I can imagine that letting the place run out of fuel and crash, in some ways might make it into an accident rather than suicide in a distorted mind.
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