Air India at Jaipur last night
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JAI is only 15 minutes away from DEL and you can easily hear the ATIS while in DEL area. And why accepting JAI as an alternate when the 2 cities are close and usually encounter the same weather phenomenon at the same time? I always refuse for example Cochin as an alternate for Trivandrum if it's a stormy day. It takes 5 minutes to call the operations and file another alternate and I never was questioned about it....
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Give it a slack for departure SID, awaiting clearance(sic) and a full procedure at JAI, you are looking at 35 minutes or so. I reckon 1600 kgs of fuel. Do not know when the lights go on in the plane, but my lights would be flashing way before that.
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Tree
Apparently the aircraft clipped a tree at the side of the runway. 
Accident: Air India A320 at Jaipur on Jan 5th 2014, runway excursion on emergency landing
Accident: Air India A320 at Jaipur on Jan 5th 2014, runway excursion on emergency landing
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If you fly at Mach .75 (Airbus cruising speed), how long does it take to cover 140NM? Do the maths and you might be surprised to find that you don't need a Concorde to cover the distance in less than 20 minutes
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Well Well Well
Sorry Hartington, got a bit carried away ! Touche !
No information on flight fuelling rules at AI but it is NOT common to have the SAME weather at JAI as DEL which is why since time immemorial flights have waited out at JAI for the fog in DEL to go away. Points about conditions being known at time of take off are well taken and same about alternate choices, but the airline that appears to be run more by bureaucrats than flyers can and does have strange rules so am not surprised if said Capn might have been bound by some other factors. Having said that read this, also reported by the Mumbai Mirror " http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Hero-pilot-averted-another-major-disaster-moments-after-Jaipur-blind-landing/articleshow/28530513.cms"
I do feel sorry for those poor people who have to be in the cockpit of an AI aricraft.. See this for example
Woman pilot makes skilful emergency landing after plane loses nose wheel - The Hindu
On top of it all you have this
Exclusive: Will the DGCA be able to save its face on October 23? : Featured, News - India Today
A grateful nation can only make heroes and heroines of such commanders.
No information on flight fuelling rules at AI but it is NOT common to have the SAME weather at JAI as DEL which is why since time immemorial flights have waited out at JAI for the fog in DEL to go away. Points about conditions being known at time of take off are well taken and same about alternate choices, but the airline that appears to be run more by bureaucrats than flyers can and does have strange rules so am not surprised if said Capn might have been bound by some other factors. Having said that read this, also reported by the Mumbai Mirror " http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Hero-pilot-averted-another-major-disaster-moments-after-Jaipur-blind-landing/articleshow/28530513.cms"
I do feel sorry for those poor people who have to be in the cockpit of an AI aricraft.. See this for example
Woman pilot makes skilful emergency landing after plane loses nose wheel - The Hindu
On top of it all you have this
Exclusive: Will the DGCA be able to save its face on October 23? : Featured, News - India Today
A grateful nation can only make heroes and heroines of such commanders.
Controversial, moi?
Would like to see our smartypants bring one in when sudden unexpected fog zeroes all the landing strips on his FMC.
And how would that unexpectedly happen?
The TAFs had absolutely no indication of anything like poor visibility.
Does that answer your question?
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I think this incident has potential to become a future CRM module....
I can't help wondering where this tree was that they hit. Couldn't see any trees there yesterday, but will have another look today. Edit: know where it is now- quite a long way from the runway!
The Airbus sits forlornly on a short runway awaiting its fate.
There is some suggestion that it actually ran out of fuel? (See thread in SE Asia forum).
Dead stick CAT III on a CAT I ILS..... That'd be a first, I think. Hopefully they had some fuel left though.
I can't help wondering where this tree was that they hit. Couldn't see any trees there yesterday, but will have another look today. Edit: know where it is now- quite a long way from the runway!
The Airbus sits forlornly on a short runway awaiting its fate.
There is some suggestion that it actually ran out of fuel? (See thread in SE Asia forum).
Dead stick CAT III on a CAT I ILS..... That'd be a first, I think. Hopefully they had some fuel left though.
Looking at it from a runway safeguarding aspect, the runway needs to be classified as an Instrument-Precision runway to support operation of the ILS. ICAO Annex 14, to which the Indian DGCA India apparently complies, requires safeguarding measures to be applied around the runway.
Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.
What will DGCA Sahib have to say about that in the Accident Report?
Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.
What will DGCA Sahib have to say about that in the Accident Report?
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Quoting TCAS FAN
Looking at it from a runway safeguarding aspect, the runway needs to be classified as an Instrument-Precision runway to support operation of the ILS. ICAO Annex 14, to which the Indian DGCA India apparently complies, requires safeguarding measures to be applied around the runway.
Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.
Your value is on 3.3 in annex 14 . Must be confirmed for the buffer /strip area.
Here is copy of runway 09/27 obstacles , issued from AIP , sorry can't get the link tonight..
Looking at it from a runway safeguarding aspect, the runway needs to be classified as an Instrument-Precision runway to support operation of the ILS. ICAO Annex 14, to which the Indian DGCA India apparently complies, requires safeguarding measures to be applied around the runway.
Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.
Your value is on 3.3 in annex 14 . Must be confirmed for the buffer /strip area.
Here is copy of runway 09/27 obstacles , issued from AIP , sorry can't get the link tonight..
Last edited by VNAV PATH; 9th Jan 2014 at 11:05. Reason: image
VNAV PATH
From what you have provided it appears that India does not comply with ICAO Annex 14. The Runway Strip shown on the Type A Chart indicates "2917 x 150".
Annex 14, Chapter 3 Standards, require that the minimum width for a runway strip for a Code 4 runway (which 09/27 is) is 150 each side of the runway centreline (para 3.4.3), and extend for at least 60 metres prior to the threshold and after the runway end (longer if a Stopway is declared) (para 3.4.2). The Strip dimensions should be 3037 x 300, longer if a Stopway is declared for either runway.
No tree is shown within the Strip, because it appears that the full width strip (ie 150 metres) is not shown.
Under Article 38 of the ICAO Convention, to which India is a signatory, States are required to declare Differences form ICAO Standards. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the AIP India within which Differences should be listed. Anyone have access to a copy to ascertain whether India declares a Difference in respect of Runway Strips?
From what you have provided it appears that India does not comply with ICAO Annex 14. The Runway Strip shown on the Type A Chart indicates "2917 x 150".
Annex 14, Chapter 3 Standards, require that the minimum width for a runway strip for a Code 4 runway (which 09/27 is) is 150 each side of the runway centreline (para 3.4.3), and extend for at least 60 metres prior to the threshold and after the runway end (longer if a Stopway is declared) (para 3.4.2). The Strip dimensions should be 3037 x 300, longer if a Stopway is declared for either runway.
No tree is shown within the Strip, because it appears that the full width strip (ie 150 metres) is not shown.
Under Article 38 of the ICAO Convention, to which India is a signatory, States are required to declare Differences form ICAO Standards. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the AIP India within which Differences should be listed. Anyone have access to a copy to ascertain whether India declares a Difference in respect of Runway Strips?
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The same thing happened in Australia last year prompting much wailing and gnashing of teeth surrounding alternate fuel requirements and the standard of meteorological forecasting. In that particular case there was no ILS for the approach.
Emergency Landing
Emergency Landing
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spice
It was a bad day with fog setting in much earlier than anticipated, had quite a few weather folks foxed as well. Most had left their origin when Delhi was reporting good visibility and the TAF didn't have mentions of a fog. While most were orbiting south or east of Delhi, many did divert. Notably Spicejet 256 declared emergency and landed in what was near disaster visibility for the aircraft and crew. that however did get overshadowed by the Air India incident.
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Did they do a manual landing? If yes ,what were the circumstances that led them to make this decision. How unreliable is the ILS at jaipur?
The ILS equipment at most airports are capable of low vis ops , however the backups, lights, signage etc as such are not in place hence only cat1 is certified.Close one i must say.
The ILS equipment at most airports are capable of low vis ops , however the backups, lights, signage etc as such are not in place hence only cat1 is certified.Close one i must say.
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Unfortunately, this type of thing has happened before - and as fuel is so in focus now - will likely happen again.
Like many operators, we are encouraged to take PLOG fuel + whatever we deem necessary, but the cost to carry extra is always pushed hard, and very softly discouraged. Tanking being a separate thing.
We've all been there, get to destination and it's not as predicted. Who can account for that? I can't... If destination, and alternate are forecast to be OK, why more.
Some of my own colleagues have come unstuck with this, in the Po Valley, Northern Italy. After all the airfields up there fogged out in an instant, they ended up going round a few times, before flying the ILS into zero viz, in aircraft only cert up to CAT II
Like many operators, we are encouraged to take PLOG fuel + whatever we deem necessary, but the cost to carry extra is always pushed hard, and very softly discouraged. Tanking being a separate thing.
We've all been there, get to destination and it's not as predicted. Who can account for that? I can't... If destination, and alternate are forecast to be OK, why more.
Some of my own colleagues have come unstuck with this, in the Po Valley, Northern Italy. After all the airfields up there fogged out in an instant, they ended up going round a few times, before flying the ILS into zero viz, in aircraft only cert up to CAT II
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@TCAS FAN about air strip obstacle area
Here are on PART 1GEN1.7 differences from ICAO standards
eAIP INDIA
If you consult PART 3 of main link of AIP, in VIDP (Delhi) some runways have 152 or 300 or 305 meter width strip. 152 m is for runway 09/27 wich is 2813 m long.
Differences in strip/buffet width are probably due to different runway classification.
One more thing , if CAT 1 was manually flown to the ground in heavy fog by night, I guess absence of center line lighting is not nice..
Here are on PART 1GEN1.7 differences from ICAO standards
eAIP INDIA
If you consult PART 3 of main link of AIP, in VIDP (Delhi) some runways have 152 or 300 or 305 meter width strip. 152 m is for runway 09/27 wich is 2813 m long.
Differences in strip/buffet width are probably due to different runway classification.
One more thing , if CAT 1 was manually flown to the ground in heavy fog by night, I guess absence of center line lighting is not nice..
Last edited by VNAV PATH; 12th Jan 2014 at 10:26.