Russian B737 Crash at Kazan.
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According to the article in Ria Novosti, the Russian Transport Minister would like to open Russia to qualified expat pilots. Russia needs between 1,000 to 2,000 new pilots per year, the state run training system produces only 650 pilots over a 3 year training program.
Part of training foreign visitors with enough dosh to buy that weightless feeling includes learning to speak Russian. Now if only they could rationalise that exotic alphabet, acquiring the necessary fluency might be easier.
How many expat pilots fly in China, I wonder? And how many new pilots does China produce relative to the demand? we don't read much about unfortunate events in that part of the world, are they doing something right, or do they just manage to keep a lid on bad news?
Part of training foreign visitors with enough dosh to buy that weightless feeling includes learning to speak Russian. Now if only they could rationalise that exotic alphabet, acquiring the necessary fluency might be easier.
How many expat pilots fly in China, I wonder? And how many new pilots does China produce relative to the demand? we don't read much about unfortunate events in that part of the world, are they doing something right, or do they just manage to keep a lid on bad news?
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Part of training foreign visitors with enough dosh to buy that weightless feeling includes learning to speak Russian. Now if only they could rationalise that exotic alphabet, acquiring the necessary fluency might be easier.
The Russian alphabet is probably the easiest thing about learning the language? It's not that exotic at all actually.
Even if they romanised their alphabet, what next? Change that pesky system of grammar that they have?
Actually learning Russian isn't too difficult (spent 8 years in Moscow until recently and now taking a well earned break) but understanding the mentality and mindset is altogether another thing, and believe me I've had some years of experience of that.
If I recall from the VP-BKO MAK report (or may have read elsewhere) not one of the flight or cabin crew was actually legally qualified to fly that fateful trip, all had false/doctored papers of some sort, but I am the last to blame them, after all, they were just following the system, and perhaps, no probably certainly, I would have done the same if I were them, I definitely am not casting aspersions on the crew here, but the system.
I suspect if an independent audit was completed of some of these smaller Russian/CIS carriers one will find something not unlike the Korean report of the late 90's, you my recall that one, it's the one that made the hairs on the back of your neck stand up for days on end.
If I recall from the VP-BKO MAK report (or may have read elsewhere) not one of the flight or cabin crew was actually legally qualified to fly that fateful trip, all had false/doctored papers of some sort, but I am the last to blame them, after all, they were just following the system, and perhaps, no probably certainly, I would have done the same if I were them, I definitely am not casting aspersions on the crew here, but the system.
I suspect if an independent audit was completed of some of these smaller Russian/CIS carriers one will find something not unlike the Korean report of the late 90's, you my recall that one, it's the one that made the hairs on the back of your neck stand up for days on end.
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Your opinion
Flash 8: when you get some time and more data becomes available please give us your impressions of this accident and if it is a harbinger of things to come in Russian airspace. I get the impression that woefully underqualified people are flying some of these planes. Thanks !
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pulse1,
Good link to a good report. Here is another link to the report:
Air Accidents Investigation: 3/2009 G-THOF
Air Accidents Investigation: Download PDF document
What's interesting in this report is that the pilots pushed the control column full forward but the auto-trim did not adjust the HS (horizontal stabilizer) from nose-up to a more nose-down angle.
Can someone explain that to me why the trim automatically adjusted the HS to a high nose up prior to a pilot nose-down command but, did not adjust the HS to a more nose-down position after the pilots pushed the column full forward.
The report doesn't explain this much.
I keep finding this HS auto nosing-up, but rarely down, in many incident reports
Good link to a good report. Here is another link to the report:
Air Accidents Investigation: 3/2009 G-THOF
Air Accidents Investigation: Download PDF document
What's interesting in this report is that the pilots pushed the control column full forward but the auto-trim did not adjust the HS (horizontal stabilizer) from nose-up to a more nose-down angle.
Can someone explain that to me why the trim automatically adjusted the HS to a high nose up prior to a pilot nose-down command but, did not adjust the HS to a more nose-down position after the pilots pushed the column full forward.
The report doesn't explain this much.
I keep finding this HS auto nosing-up, but rarely down, in many incident reports
Can someone explain that to me why the trim automatically adjusted the HS to a high nose up prior to a pilot nose-down command but, did not adjust the HS to a more nose-down position after the pilots pushed the column full forward.
Re-read pages 4-5 and note carefully when the A/P was engaged in LOC-G/S mode, and when it was in CWS mode, and when it was disengaged.
"The autopilot tracked the glideslope accurately, gradually increasing the pitch of the aircraft to minimise glideslope deviation and adjusting the stabiliser angle to keep the aircraft in trim......
"The autopilot mode changed from localiser and glideslope to Control Wheel Steer (CWS) pitch and CWS roll6. The aircraft pitch attitude which had been steadily increasing under the influence of pitch trim, reached 12o nose-up. The automatic pitch trim stopped at 4.9o (7.9 units) of stabiliser trim.....
"Four seconds after the thrust levers reached the fully forward position, with airspeed increasing and N1 on both engines increasing through 81%, the TOGA mode became active. The autopilot disengaged, the pitch attitude started to increase again and the stick-shaker reactivated....
Originally Posted by Skyjob
Has anyone already considered that the initial upset could've been resultant of malfunctioning PCU's due deicing fluid?
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In the first case, the autopilot was engaged - in the second case the autopilot was NOT engaged. Auto trim is a function of the autopilot.
If you or anyone have more to add to this pls do.
Thanks olasek for the link to the report, here are more links to the official report. Very interesting read even though the report's conclusion is weirdly placed.
Report on the serious incident to Icelandair Boeing 757-200 at Oslo Airport Gardermoen Norway 22 January 2002 2003/07 | aibn
http://www.aibn.no/tf_fio_eng-pdf?lc...-File&attach=1
Dan, the issue is Instrument Scan. Is the devleopment and application of one not considered a core competency of a professional pilot? Does the pilot force of a given airline get sufficient reps in instrument flying to keep the scan skill current, and not rusty?
You mitigate the problems of those illusions by flying on your instruments, regardless of what you "feel" in the seat.
You mitigate the problems of those illusions by flying on your instruments, regardless of what you "feel" in the seat.
A crew taking off at night went IMC at about 1000ft agl. The captain was the PF. At the acceleration altitude, the FD commands were followed which of course led to a pitch down. Being at a light load, the aircraft accelerated rapidly. The PF sensed the aircraft hadn't pitched down far enough depsite the PFD attitude and the FD telling him otherwise - and continued to lower the nose. The PM mentioned to him three times to follow the FD commands, and when the aircraft started to descend, took control by engaging an autopilot. Afterwards, the PM stated that he was convinced the aircraft was still piching up and that he didn't hear the PM's comments. (The PF had about 20,000 hrs and a good training record BTW).
In this case, only one pilot was affected and the incident had a safe outcome. When both pilots are - then this can lead to a major incident. Such cases are the Gulf Air crash at Bahrain in 2000, the Aravia crash at Sochi in 2005 and the Afriqiyah crash at Tripoli in 2010.
My own personal experience with this illusion happened during my flying training. Soo after a night take off over the sea in a military jet trainer, I got it big time. I sensed I had pitched up through the vertical and was now on my back. It took all my concentration to fly the attitude even though my senses were telling me I was doing something different.
Good training and instrument flying discipline should mitigate the threat of spatial disorientation. But it's not an ideal world.
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Well, Russians and some ex-USSR countries still have not learned the lesson about safe approaches, I know it because I have refused to give trainning to some of them after I discovered they donґt know how to shoot them, and Iґm talking pilots with +15.000hrs, not even reading a Metar or even a jepp chart.
When I turned this to the relevant CAA in their respective countries I found that they donґt care too.
So, we should look deeply into their system, how many crashes last year? Kazan, Rostov, Donestk, Amatty...
When I told these pilots that Iґwas not going to sign off their trainning, explainning them the reasons and how I was saving their lives and others what I got back was worst, management getting rid of me and getting another trainners, thatґs the reality in Russia.
When I turned this to the relevant CAA in their respective countries I found that they donґt care too.
So, we should look deeply into their system, how many crashes last year? Kazan, Rostov, Donestk, Amatty...
When I told these pilots that Iґwas not going to sign off their trainning, explainning them the reasons and how I was saving their lives and others what I got back was worst, management getting rid of me and getting another trainners, thatґs the reality in Russia.
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Are there expat jobs in China?
Did a bit of digging. Answered my own question, do expat pilots find jobs in china? Longreach aviation is advertising all kinds of work with the following assortment of chinese airlines: Aviation China, Beijing Capital, West, China Southern, and Hainan Airways, jobs with Hainan possibly available for captains in 737, 767, A330 and 340.
But having a trawl through the South East Asia and Far East threads, a thread regarding Hainan interviews is worth reading for the problems a candidate may encounter trying to work in China. Including breathing (which is why all those romantic TV presentations of the Great Wall and other historic sites feature spectacular red sunsets).
It is certainly worth reading about the styles of deicing that have been observed.
Also, beware of unscrupulous agencies....
If the rules change in Russia to welcome expat pilots, no doubt the national culture will provide interesting challenges.
But having a trawl through the South East Asia and Far East threads, a thread regarding Hainan interviews is worth reading for the problems a candidate may encounter trying to work in China. Including breathing (which is why all those romantic TV presentations of the Great Wall and other historic sites feature spectacular red sunsets).
It is certainly worth reading about the styles of deicing that have been observed.
Also, beware of unscrupulous agencies....
If the rules change in Russia to welcome expat pilots, no doubt the national culture will provide interesting challenges.
Last edited by mary meagher; 25th Nov 2013 at 09:00.
Also: do you understand what I mean by "being behind the aircraft?"
(I suspect that you do, but then, why speculate?)
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If the rules change in Russia to welcome expat pilots, no doubt the national culture will provide interesting challenges.
... одним из путей решения проблемы является приглашение иностранных летчиков.... тот законопроект, который, я надеюсь, до конца текущего года будет принят в Государственной думе...
Reportedly pilots in Tatarstan earn 20.000 RUR monthly (US$610)...
Required height for GA in Kazan Apt is 500m. When they realize that their actual height is 900 or 700m, they may try to descent to 500 m too steeply...
Last edited by Karel_x; 25th Nov 2013 at 20:27.
Please explain what you mean, less cryptically.
What's your purpose around here, guys?
BTW, knowledge that pitching down in response to s.i. makes it only worse was part of JAA ATPL syllabus.
Thank you for sharing, but you have not answered the question I asked:
Care to answer that?
The question asked by me is related to a few comments on the speed of the initial report, and whether or not ( I asked, since I don't know) it may take a deeper look at subtle cues and signals held in the FDR to find out if a hardover may or may not have been involved.
If not, fine, no worries. Your glib answer did not answer that question.
As to the point on basics, it might be useful to remember:
1: not everyone who reads this forum is or was a pilot, nor even an instrument rated pilot.
2: whether or not SI is a known problem in instrument flying (it has been known for decades what it is, and how to mitigate it) strikes me as irrelevant to this particular accident. It should not be a factor to a crew that is instrument rated, and current on instrument flying skills.
Professional pilots who are charged with carrying passengers on flights that can be expected to encounter IMC have to be able to fly using their instruments.
THAT is one of the ways to mitigate the known risks of SI.
Anyone ever get the leans?
Show of hands?
(Yes, my hand is UP!)
If that capability is not present (see a number of above points made on overcontrolling ... which is usually a symptom of being behind the aircraft ... ) then some of the other concerns voiced elsewhere in this discussion become germane for that particular airline, and maybe the industry. (See comments by others on qualification and experience of the crew ... ) What got my attention most on the translated message from the investigators was that the crew recognized an unstable approach, and took the correct course of action: go around.
That it shortly thereafter went horribly pearshaped is both tragic and troubling.
Since you know most of this, and likely have to apply you professional experience of IMC flying in daily work when carrying people your own self, why your other question?
Not all readers here are instrument rated pilots.
I don't know enough about 737 to guess intelligently, but IF they had a malfunction in the pitch trim motor/system, and had a trim hardover or runaway during this maneuver, how easy is it for FDR to figure that out?
Care to answer that?
The question asked by me is related to a few comments on the speed of the initial report, and whether or not ( I asked, since I don't know) it may take a deeper look at subtle cues and signals held in the FDR to find out if a hardover may or may not have been involved.
If not, fine, no worries. Your glib answer did not answer that question.
As to the point on basics, it might be useful to remember:
1: not everyone who reads this forum is or was a pilot, nor even an instrument rated pilot.
2: whether or not SI is a known problem in instrument flying (it has been known for decades what it is, and how to mitigate it) strikes me as irrelevant to this particular accident. It should not be a factor to a crew that is instrument rated, and current on instrument flying skills.
Professional pilots who are charged with carrying passengers on flights that can be expected to encounter IMC have to be able to fly using their instruments.
THAT is one of the ways to mitigate the known risks of SI.
Anyone ever get the leans?
Show of hands?
(Yes, my hand is UP!)
If that capability is not present (see a number of above points made on overcontrolling ... which is usually a symptom of being behind the aircraft ... ) then some of the other concerns voiced elsewhere in this discussion become germane for that particular airline, and maybe the industry. (See comments by others on qualification and experience of the crew ... ) What got my attention most on the translated message from the investigators was that the crew recognized an unstable approach, and took the correct course of action: go around.
That it shortly thereafter went horribly pearshaped is both tragic and troubling.
Since you know most of this, and likely have to apply you professional experience of IMC flying in daily work when carrying people your own self, why your other question?
Not all readers here are instrument rated pilots.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 26th Nov 2013 at 15:44.
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Reportedly pilots in Tatarstan earn 20.000 RUR monthly (US$610)...
Here's an article that mentions that captains of Tatarstan Airlines are paid 250000 RUB (around $7500) monthly. Now it IS a bit low for pilots and actually sounds like it could be true. But consider that 100000 RUB is considered VERY good in many other professions (I earn around that, for example, and I'm a software developer).
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BTW, knowledge that pitching down in response to s.i. makes it only worse was part of JAA ATPL syllabus
//BTW, I am not saying that SGI is the cause of this incident. But I do think it more likely than some of the other theories have have been spread around.
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Here's an article that mentions that captains of Tatarstan Airlines are paid 250000 RUB
Но самое страшное, что экономия сказалась и на качестве летного персонала. Выжимая из двух последних болгарских Боингов максимум возможного, авиакомпания платила пилотам смешные по меркам авиации 20000 рублей. Найти настоящих пилотов на такие зарплаты невозможно.
I also hope, that is is not true...
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This article cites an Aeroflot A320 captain flying 90 hours a month as making 400,000 rubles a month or $12K. Plus a benefits package.
??????? ???????? ??????? «?????????» ???????? ?? 400 ???. ???. ? ????? | ???????? | ????????? ? ?????
??????? ???????? ??????? «?????????» ???????? ?? 400 ???. ???. ? ????? | ???????? | ????????? ? ?????