Swiss A320 cabin pressure, "ATC refused descent request"
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swiss A320 cabin pressure, "ATC refused descent request"
According to this report (in German), an LX A320 had cabin pressure problems en route ZRH-VLC last Thursday 12 Sept. It's reported that the crew requested a lower altitude but ATC would not grant this, even after a Pan call, until finally the crew called Mayday.
Assuming the report is accurate, does this just illustrate the lack of consistency with which Pan calls are treated? Should the crew have called Mayday immediately? Or could ATC have been more responsive even in the absence of declared urgency/distress?
Google translate link here.
Assuming the report is accurate, does this just illustrate the lack of consistency with which Pan calls are treated? Should the crew have called Mayday immediately? Or could ATC have been more responsive even in the absence of declared urgency/distress?
Google translate link here.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: On cloud 9
Posts: 884
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have pressure problems en-route it should be a Mayday with immediate descent, and once safe you can downgrade again to a Pan or cancel it altogether depending on your situation.
A request or a Pan does not require ATC to give you preference because you are not in danger - if you were you would call mayday!! A Pan means they should give you preference when circumstance allows for it, and if they don't you must wait. In Europe the airspace can be very busy, so they might not have been able to give a descent without moving everyone else away, just because of a polite request.
It is really about the crew determining how much hurry they are in, and classify it accordingly. There is no room for politeness when the
hits the fan.
A request or a Pan does not require ATC to give you preference because you are not in danger - if you were you would call mayday!! A Pan means they should give you preference when circumstance allows for it, and if they don't you must wait. In Europe the airspace can be very busy, so they might not have been able to give a descent without moving everyone else away, just because of a polite request.
It is really about the crew determining how much hurry they are in, and classify it accordingly. There is no room for politeness when the
hits the fan.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 16th Sep 2013 at 11:19.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with PullUp too. It could be lost in translation but there's a big difference between "request lower altitude" and "require lower altitude" (pointed out by a controller to me on a recent tour of YMML en-route ATC).
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: dunno
Age: 52
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"require"
"Require" is not a ICAO recognized term. It is widely used in Oz and NZ (I believe they have a requirement (pun!) in their AIPs to use "require" to request WX deviation). But it is still non-standard R/T in the rest of the world.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends on the situation and experience of the crew/controller. Remember one situation when we departed a small German airport in Class G airspace. Stopped at FL80 and TCAS showed a conflict straight ahead climbing 500ft below. We requested climb to be denied due to military airpsace above. Neither left or right would be given as well. TCAS RA Climb. Controller probably had a lot more explaining and paper work to do after that one!
Pegase Driver
Read the article, it misses something and without a transcript of the R/T and a traffic situation it is difficult to assess who is miunderstanding who.
If a "request" is made and you have traffic below or opposite , or an active military area below, any controller is not going to give an authorisation to descend.
Pan-Pan calls are not giving any priority., nor require special assistance . read ICAO phraseo definitions.
Mayday calls + 7700 will
I understand from the article that once the crew did that he could go down.
I would have thought that after many incidents and even accidents ( Avianca comes of course to mind) the declalring emergency R/T procedure had been tightened up. obviously not.
If a "request" is made and you have traffic below or opposite , or an active military area below, any controller is not going to give an authorisation to descend.
Pan-Pan calls are not giving any priority., nor require special assistance . read ICAO phraseo definitions.
Mayday calls + 7700 will
I understand from the article that once the crew did that he could go down.
I would have thought that after many incidents and even accidents ( Avianca comes of course to mind) the declalring emergency R/T procedure had been tightened up. obviously not.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In the Sky
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC does not fly the airplane. The pilot does. You fly the airplane by grabbing the yoke (or stick), not pressing the PTT button.
You TELL ATC what you ARE doing, and they get to facilitate it.
Pilot IN COMMAND.
Learn it, love it, live it. Button mashers need not apply.
You TELL ATC what you ARE doing, and they get to facilitate it.
Pilot IN COMMAND.
Learn it, love it, live it. Button mashers need not apply.
Pegase Driver
You TELL ATC what you ARE doing, and they get to facilitate it.
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 16th Sep 2013 at 21:16.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC Watcher:
I think you might have to reconsider ..... You do NOT steer the airplane as little as a traffic cop steers YOUR car! You are, and should remember you are a service provider and I respect you guys for the mostly excellent job you do.
I tend to think that those of you who do know who is in charge are also the ones that really run an efficient airspace!
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
I tend to think that those of you who do know who is in charge are also the ones that really run an efficient airspace!
above
I'm happy to see the polite discussion above. However, the declaratory statements do need to be sorted out among us (sic)
are there any published instructions that might help clarify this ?
ATC Watcher:
Quote:
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
I think you might have to reconsider ..... You do NOT steer the airplane as little as a traffic cop steers YOUR car! You are, and should remember you are a service provider and I respect you guys for the mostly excellent job you do.
I tend to think that those of you who do know who is in charge are also the ones that really run an efficient airspace!
Quote:
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
I think you might have to reconsider ..... You do NOT steer the airplane as little as a traffic cop steers YOUR car! You are, and should remember you are a service provider and I respect you guys for the mostly excellent job you do.
I tend to think that those of you who do know who is in charge are also the ones that really run an efficient airspace!
are there any published instructions that might help clarify this ?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In da north country
Age: 62
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After few tequila's, and little experience;
A few years ago when I was an engineer on an A-300, Some how, unbeknownst to me, the pacs never got turned on, or, some how got turned off, but at FL300, we got an altitude warning horn. WOW! anyway, before declaring an emergency(mayday) or even a WTF Pan Pan, ole numbskull done figured it out, and with out any rubber jungle, all was well.
Not all pressurization issues are a Mayday!
Let the fodder fly!
A few years ago when I was an engineer on an A-300, Some how, unbeknownst to me, the pacs never got turned on, or, some how got turned off, but at FL300, we got an altitude warning horn. WOW! anyway, before declaring an emergency(mayday) or even a WTF Pan Pan, ole numbskull done figured it out, and with out any rubber jungle, all was well.
Not all pressurization issues are a Mayday!
Let the fodder fly!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On this side of the pond, an urgent call will certainly get you whatever priority you need. If we're experiencing unusual ops, I usually have to insist to the controller that no assistance is required, as they are (thankfully) extremely eager to get people out of our way.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 73
Posts: 511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will probably get shot down for this, but I would initiate a turn off the airway whilst starting the descent, then I would transmit a Mayday.
Last edited by Offchocks; 17th Sep 2013 at 03:37.
Absolutely what I would do, there's no debate about it , that's how our checklist is written and has been on every Jet I have flown
Last edited by stilton; 17th Sep 2013 at 05:46.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which is about right anywhere except europe. Not to mention that nobody (except over spain) flies on an airway to begin with, if you turn off one you are smack right on about five others as they are so closely knit.
We asked eurocontrol as well as the ATC service providers of the major european countries and they all advised us to just descent on planned routing (usually a direct to some point), uncoordinated turns would increase risk and ATC workload.
We asked eurocontrol as well as the ATC service providers of the major european countries and they all advised us to just descent on planned routing (usually a direct to some point), uncoordinated turns would increase risk and ATC workload.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The report on Av Herald sheds some light...good grief folks...fly first sort out the crap later..how many precious minutes were wasted on trying to get a "clearance" commanders emergency allows deviation from any clearance as necessary to meet the needs of an emergency...