Swiss A320 cabin pressure, "ATC refused descent request"
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the rest of the time , if you want to come to control aispace you are subject to ATC instructions. I you do not like it, perfectly OK, just stay out of Control aispace and stay VMC .
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
I am not having an argument, just stating the basic facts of Air navigation today..
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Dorado
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After few tequila's, and little experience;
A few years ago when I was an engineer on an A-300, Some how, unbeknownst to me, the pacs never got turned on, or, some how got turned off, but at FL300, we got an altitude warning horn. WOW! anyway, before declaring an emergency(mayday) or even a WTF Pan Pan, ole numbskull done figured it out, and with out any rubber jungle, all was well.
Not all pressurization issues are a Mayday!
Let the fodder fly!
A few years ago when I was an engineer on an A-300, Some how, unbeknownst to me, the pacs never got turned on, or, some how got turned off, but at FL300, we got an altitude warning horn. WOW! anyway, before declaring an emergency(mayday) or even a WTF Pan Pan, ole numbskull done figured it out, and with out any rubber jungle, all was well.
Not all pressurization issues are a Mayday!
Let the fodder fly!
I admit that I don't know all the details but they reported a pressurization problem not a rapid decompression, so why all children of the magenta line would declare a mayday and immediately start an (emergency?) descent is beyond me.
A pressurization problem (perhaps just an abnormal cabin climb rate, or a spike) could be as simple as selecting another pack controller or selecting the outflow valves to manual. However, once a full (emergency) descent has been initiated you're more or less committed to divert as well, because you you probably won't have the fuel to climb back to a normal cruise level once/if the problem is solved.
Obviously thinking and problem solving is not part of a pilot's job these days...
how many precious minutes were wasted on trying to get a "clearance" commanders emergency allows deviation from any clearance as necessary to meet the needs of an emergency...
ATC-watcher, in the end, the pilot is on top of the food chain. Not ATC. If the pilot thinks he must descend, he will. With or without a mayday. Within or outside of controlled airspace.
Now the paperwork afterwards might be interesting if the pilot violated his 'privileges', but please don't forget it is the pilot that is served by ATC and not the other way around!
Now the paperwork afterwards might be interesting if the pilot violated his 'privileges', but please don't forget it is the pilot that is served by ATC and not the other way around!
Last edited by PENKO; 17th Sep 2013 at 11:48.
but please don't forget it is the pilot that is served by ATC and not the other way around!
Pegase Driver
PENKO and a few others:
Far from me to dispute the fact that ATC is there for the pilots, not the other way around. I am a pilot too, and today I fly far more than I control ( I stopped handling an ATC mike 8 years ago ). And when I fly I want ATC to help me without arguing too.(they mostly do, no worries
)
Let's get away from Ego's for a second . and look at safety : back to the original thread.
Basics: If a pilot a has a serious problem that do need immediate attention and priority, emergency descend , whatever, : he should declare emergency and call Mayday , squawk 77, whatever and he will get the full support of everyone.
Pan-Pan will not get you anything basically.It just information that there is a problem on board nothing more.
And that was the original point here I beleive.
Telling the problem in long plain language will not help much neither. We need to use Mayday . and/or 7700 . period. Remember Avianca .
Some children of the magenta line ( but not only them I would dare to say reading some posts ) not born when Avianca crashed and not understanding this should perhaps refresh themselves by reading this excellent booklet last 2 pages :
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/115.pdf
As to descending straight ahead without telling anybody , or when it is over ( been there, got the T-shirt) while I can understand that as a pilot ( Aviate, navigate ,communicate, : yes comm is last, I know that ) I do not like it as a controller, because I am responsible to keep everyone clear of each other. But I know I have to live with that.
Doing an emergency descent staying straight on the airway axis ?
Use common sense and knowledge. turning 30 degrees will definitively help. ( (unless you are above FFM, SPI, DIK, SPR ,TRA, etc.. of course but you can't win all the time. Need a bit of luck too. But staight ahead under RNP5 /GNSS NAV ? No way for me.
Remember also TCAS is extremely bad or will even be inhibited with very high rates of descent.
Now some inside ATC info :
Modern ATC systems takes up to 10 seconds to display ALT and if it is from level flight to 4-5000 ft lower in one go, most systems ( mine did) will not display altitude asuming garbling .(at least for one update),
Then ATC might not notice , if you are cruising level flight not directly confilcting with anyone his attention/focus will definitively not be on you.
The airspace is such structured that the sectors ( read altitudes) below are not controlled from the same room or even the same country. Military will only clear the way below you if they see 7700 . They do not normally monitor civil a/c altitudes deviations.
So keep communicated until the end when doing an emergency descent ,and you're on your own relying on luck not to meet someone on your way down. Tell ATC a.s.a.p and you'll increase your chances someone will get them out of the way. Nothing more to it.
Far from me to dispute the fact that ATC is there for the pilots, not the other way around. I am a pilot too, and today I fly far more than I control ( I stopped handling an ATC mike 8 years ago ). And when I fly I want ATC to help me without arguing too.(they mostly do, no worries
)Let's get away from Ego's for a second . and look at safety : back to the original thread.
Basics: If a pilot a has a serious problem that do need immediate attention and priority, emergency descend , whatever, : he should declare emergency and call Mayday , squawk 77, whatever and he will get the full support of everyone.
Pan-Pan will not get you anything basically.It just information that there is a problem on board nothing more.
And that was the original point here I beleive.
Telling the problem in long plain language will not help much neither. We need to use Mayday . and/or 7700 . period. Remember Avianca .
Some children of the magenta line ( but not only them I would dare to say reading some posts ) not born when Avianca crashed and not understanding this should perhaps refresh themselves by reading this excellent booklet last 2 pages :
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/115.pdf
As to descending straight ahead without telling anybody , or when it is over ( been there, got the T-shirt) while I can understand that as a pilot ( Aviate, navigate ,communicate, : yes comm is last, I know that ) I do not like it as a controller, because I am responsible to keep everyone clear of each other. But I know I have to live with that.
Doing an emergency descent staying straight on the airway axis ?
Use common sense and knowledge. turning 30 degrees will definitively help. ( (unless you are above FFM, SPI, DIK, SPR ,TRA, etc.. of course but you can't win all the time. Need a bit of luck too. But staight ahead under RNP5 /GNSS NAV ? No way for me.
Remember also TCAS is extremely bad or will even be inhibited with very high rates of descent.
Now some inside ATC info :
Modern ATC systems takes up to 10 seconds to display ALT and if it is from level flight to 4-5000 ft lower in one go, most systems ( mine did) will not display altitude asuming garbling .(at least for one update),
Then ATC might not notice , if you are cruising level flight not directly confilcting with anyone his attention/focus will definitively not be on you.
The airspace is such structured that the sectors ( read altitudes) below are not controlled from the same room or even the same country. Military will only clear the way below you if they see 7700 . They do not normally monitor civil a/c altitudes deviations.
So keep communicated until the end when doing an emergency descent ,and you're on your own relying on luck not to meet someone on your way down. Tell ATC a.s.a.p and you'll increase your chances someone will get them out of the way. Nothing more to it.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC Watcher: Many thanks for some of your comments regarding pilot actions and emergency descents. There was a discussion topic some weeks ago. Many different opinions about when to inform ATC of your E.D. before executing it or before; TA only on TCAS; turning L or R etc. Sadly little ATC input came into that topic, but now you have expressed your thoughts. We wonder if ATC has an SOP for E.D's as do the pilots? Trouble is there did not seem to be a standard SOP amongst the airlines. I hear ICAO is looking into it. About time.
Pegase Driver
RAT 5 : thanks. I was not aware of a previous discussion on E.D.pity. lots to talk about.
To answer your question about ATC SOPs for ED, well it is exactly like with airlines and air aircraft operators; everyone has its own idea and train its staff accordingly.
Also, the chances for a controller to actually excperience an E.D. in his shift is rather rare. so easily forgotten,.
Some ATS untis/service providers train their staff better than others and even provide emergency chekclists. But not everyone.
Interestingly the military ATC do use emergency check lists , and when the German DFS took over their military they discovered the benefits of controller check lists and introduced them for civil controllers. A very good initiative, but far from being standardised elsewhere unfortunately.
As to ICAO, well it moves slowly ,some men representing some Sates still live in the B707/VC10 era. A bit like here on this forum basically
To answer your question about ATC SOPs for ED, well it is exactly like with airlines and air aircraft operators; everyone has its own idea and train its staff accordingly.
Also, the chances for a controller to actually excperience an E.D. in his shift is rather rare. so easily forgotten,.
Some ATS untis/service providers train their staff better than others and even provide emergency chekclists. But not everyone.
Interestingly the military ATC do use emergency check lists , and when the German DFS took over their military they discovered the benefits of controller check lists and introduced them for civil controllers. A very good initiative, but far from being standardised elsewhere unfortunately.
As to ICAO, well it moves slowly ,some men representing some Sates still live in the B707/VC10 era. A bit like here on this forum basically
ATC watcher
I accept most of what you say, just as you must accept that at times the PIC may have to act unilaterally and advise ATC later. A high alt wake encounter (FL390, 747 being the generator) to the shaker required an immediate response on my part before ATC could be advised.
I accept most of what you say, just as you must accept that at times the PIC may have to act unilaterally and advise ATC later. A high alt wake encounter (FL390, 747 being the generator) to the shaker required an immediate response on my part before ATC could be advised.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC watcher
I accept most of what you say, just as you must accept that at times the PIC may have to act unilaterally and advise ATC later. A high alt wake encounter (FL390, 747 being the generator) to the shaker required an immediate response on my part before ATC could be advised.
I accept most of what you say, just as you must accept that at times the PIC may have to act unilaterally and advise ATC later. A high alt wake encounter (FL390, 747 being the generator) to the shaker required an immediate response on my part before ATC could be advised.
All any aircraft needs to do is set 7700 or call "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY callsign WAIT OUT". Something that PNF could do perhaps but it would ensure that the control facilities affected by your flight would immediately start vectoring other aircraft away and stop handoffs to the sector you were flying in and moving aircraft off the frequency you are on.
Then from observing what your aircraft was doing other alerts and administrative actions can be taken such as identifying and alerting nearest suitable airports etc. all this without you saying anything more. However, if you do NOT tell ATC that you have a problem, what you will get is continual annoyed calls over RT from the controller (and possibly repeats from 'helpful' other aircraft in the sector) until the controller decides that you might be in emergency or more probably these days that you may have been hijacked.
I would suggest it makes everything a lot easier and safer to alert ATC with a truncated Mayday call, then tell them to wait. When you have time you can tell ATC what you need and everyone will have already been cleared out of your way.
Ian
If time permits yes.
The correct immediate response is to aviate however. The other guy is ensuring I use the correct procedures before he/she does anything else. Shortly, hopefully very shortly thereafter ATC will be advised. What if the frequency is saturated and it takes a number of seconds to change the squawk and have it recognized by ATC and hope they have an open frequency to move any conflicting traffic? Surely you don't expect me to counter the aerodynamic laws that are taking effect if I don't fix the problem. What of a single pilot ship such as a citation? Should that pilot put off the ingrained stall recovery procedure to talk on the radios to inform ATC before recovering from a stall? No, aviate, navigate then communicate. Immediate responses are trained for a reason.
Sometimes you have to act and understand that there's no guarantees in life. Hopefully the big sky, little airplane theory works in everyone's favor. In my situation, had I waited till ATC responded and moved airplanes if there was a confliction, I would have been headed downhill anyway, in a stall however.
Literally sometimes all you have a 2-3 seconds to react. Only once in my career so far have I had to do something like that. Given the few years it took off my life, hopefully the last as well.
You can argue it all you want, but that's what going to happen. If its any consolation, I agree with what you've said for almost all situations.
If time permits yes.
The correct immediate response is to aviate however. The other guy is ensuring I use the correct procedures before he/she does anything else. Shortly, hopefully very shortly thereafter ATC will be advised. What if the frequency is saturated and it takes a number of seconds to change the squawk and have it recognized by ATC and hope they have an open frequency to move any conflicting traffic? Surely you don't expect me to counter the aerodynamic laws that are taking effect if I don't fix the problem. What of a single pilot ship such as a citation? Should that pilot put off the ingrained stall recovery procedure to talk on the radios to inform ATC before recovering from a stall? No, aviate, navigate then communicate. Immediate responses are trained for a reason.
Sometimes you have to act and understand that there's no guarantees in life. Hopefully the big sky, little airplane theory works in everyone's favor. In my situation, had I waited till ATC responded and moved airplanes if there was a confliction, I would have been headed downhill anyway, in a stall however.
Literally sometimes all you have a 2-3 seconds to react. Only once in my career so far have I had to do something like that. Given the few years it took off my life, hopefully the last as well.
You can argue it all you want, but that's what going to happen. If its any consolation, I agree with what you've said for almost all situations.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That said, the F/O in that case did manage to get a Mayday out after the emergency descent.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LSM et al, the UK AIP ENR section can be found here and section ENR 1.4 ATS Airspace Classification states ATC instructions are mandatory for any IFR aircraft flying in Classes A to F airspace, and any VFR aircraft flying in Class B or C airspace.
NATS train their controllers to expect everything and anything, and during the emergency simulations for training, sometimes there are examples of emergency descents with no communication and turns. It is well known that no communication is likely in the early stages, all a controller can do is the best they think at the time. If this is expected, then anything else is a bonus, and for me, the biggest bonus would be to squawk 7700. This one thing simply draws the attention of not only the controller working the aircraft, but every other controller with airspace in the vicinity or controllers who are authorised to penetrate CAS without coordination (military etc). As for the turns, they aren't liked in NATSland, but again training covers this. My advice is to be very cautious turning if you have already been assigned a vector, it probably means there is another one not that far away that you might just turn into.
NATS train their controllers to expect everything and anything, and during the emergency simulations for training, sometimes there are examples of emergency descents with no communication and turns. It is well known that no communication is likely in the early stages, all a controller can do is the best they think at the time. If this is expected, then anything else is a bonus, and for me, the biggest bonus would be to squawk 7700. This one thing simply draws the attention of not only the controller working the aircraft, but every other controller with airspace in the vicinity or controllers who are authorised to penetrate CAS without coordination (military etc). As for the turns, they aren't liked in NATSland, but again training covers this. My advice is to be very cautious turning if you have already been assigned a vector, it probably means there is another one not that far away that you might just turn into.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I am on a vector I assume it is because there is a conflict at my level, not many thousands of feet below during my ED. Clearly this is a case of turn AND descent, so the chances of hitting someone at my level are pretty slim. In any case I don't imagine many people would turn if they are off the airway on a heading.
If I am on an airway on the other hand I would turn as it is not at all uncommon to see aircraft exactly below me.
If I am on an airway on the other hand I would turn as it is not at all uncommon to see aircraft exactly below me.
Last edited by calypso; 19th Sep 2013 at 05:50.
Pegase Driver
West Coast :
Nobody ( I think) is suggesting than faced with an Emergency descent you should first contact ATC and request ATC instructions !
What I ,and others here ,are saying is that, in order to be the safest ( which we all strive for )when faced with an emergency descent , call Maday and turn 7700 as soon as you can. No pan-Pan, no long stories, and not wait until things are over.
Yes, the big blue sky works most of the time , but in a complex and congested airspace luck will run out one day.
So why not increase your chances to have a fee path below to descent into ?
We pilots and controllers are normally very good at multitasking. (The women among us even better ) Why not ,WHILE AVIATING , pressing the PTT and saying something like : Company (*) Mayday-Mayday Emergency descent "
Training for this in the Sim , so that it becomes a reflex will help.
Then training controllers how to reply in a consistant manner ( i.e everybody everywhere knows how to react) will also help.
(*) experience shows that in many emergencies pilots under stress get the trip number wrong. not an issue if pilot( or someone else in the cockpit) squawk 7700 )
Nobody ( I think) is suggesting than faced with an Emergency descent you should first contact ATC and request ATC instructions !
What I ,and others here ,are saying is that, in order to be the safest ( which we all strive for )when faced with an emergency descent , call Maday and turn 7700 as soon as you can. No pan-Pan, no long stories, and not wait until things are over.
Yes, the big blue sky works most of the time , but in a complex and congested airspace luck will run out one day.
So why not increase your chances to have a fee path below to descent into ?
We pilots and controllers are normally very good at multitasking. (The women among us even better
) Why not ,WHILE AVIATING , pressing the PTT and saying something like : Company (*) Mayday-Mayday Emergency descent " Training for this in the Sim , so that it becomes a reflex will help.
Then training controllers how to reply in a consistant manner ( i.e everybody everywhere knows how to react) will also help.
(*) experience shows that in many emergencies pilots under stress get the trip number wrong. not an issue if pilot( or someone else in the cockpit) squawk 7700 )
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I am on a vector I assume it is because there is a conflict at my level, not many thousands of feet below during my ED.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubbish. Assumptions permeate everything we do in aviation. Every performance calculation and every SOP is based on certain assumptions.
If I need to descent right now! I need to do so based on a number of assumptions as I do not have enough time or enough information to do a full analysis of all the factors at play. One of those is that if I am on the airway someone might be directly below me. By and large if someone is going through my level 5 miles or less from me I do know about it if they have a transponder. It is my job to know and be aware. If I don't happen to know about the other traffic either turning or continuing straight ahead might result in TCAS as I start the ED maneuver. Since I do not which I just have to take my chances and follow our SOP which requires a turn (based on a number of assumptions of course...)
If I need to descent right now! I need to do so based on a number of assumptions as I do not have enough time or enough information to do a full analysis of all the factors at play. One of those is that if I am on the airway someone might be directly below me. By and large if someone is going through my level 5 miles or less from me I do know about it if they have a transponder. It is my job to know and be aware. If I don't happen to know about the other traffic either turning or continuing straight ahead might result in TCAS as I start the ED maneuver. Since I do not which I just have to take my chances and follow our SOP which requires a turn (based on a number of assumptions of course...)