Punctuality before safety: Chirp reports on a Low Cost Airline.
Grim Sleeper
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Six sector days, majority of your pay is flight/sector pay, you are treated like an autopilot, but it's the only job you can get. And you wonder why **name deleted** Air crews sound a little miffed with proceedings from time to time??
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Is there anyone reading this thread from Ryanair who could confirm or deny the rumour that they receive a punctuality payment ?
I have to say that I see some of their aeroplanes taxying extremely fast at times and would not be surprised if it were them the report applied to.
I have to say that I see some of their aeroplanes taxying extremely fast at times and would not be surprised if it were them the report applied to.
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The buck stops with the the yellow harp on this one. I've seen a few occurrences similar to those mentioned. I know they don't all act like this but there's always the odd halfwit making sure his colleagues a bad name.
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What is SESMA?
SESMA is the enhanced flight data monitoring equipment that was pioneered by BA in the early 90's. It records up to 2000 different variables at one time, such as air speed, angle of attack, flap settings, gear position, etc. When a particular limit for one of these variables is exceeded the SESMA 'flags' the transgression so the next time the Quick Access Recorder is downloaded, the details will be there for all to see.
When a significant error/divergence form Standard Operating Procedure/Incident/Accident occurs then the Captain will be contacted by the union to ask what external influences may have contributed to the 'event'.
What SESMA in BA has led to, is a pilot body who know they must stick to the prescribed procedure in their Flying Manual otherwise their actions will be there for all to see in the Safety Department the following day.
This has led to an undoubtably safer operating philosophy. Strong words you say? Ask yourself this (Go excluded as they have a QAR ). If you knew that your training department will know if you landed 20 knots fast at EDI because you did not plan for the 10 kt tail wind at 2000ft; would you continue at 500ft when you've only just selected Land Flap?
To the non-pilots on this thread - Landing 20kts fast increases the risk of running off the end SIGNIFICANTLY. A BA or GO pilot would Go Around if they were 20 kts fast. If a 'Low Frill' pilot found themselves in this position, it would be their pride that dictated whether they attempted a landing, not their safety systems.
BA/GO pilots do not have superior skill, just a bigger 'brother'.
When a significant error/divergence form Standard Operating Procedure/Incident/Accident occurs then the Captain will be contacted by the union to ask what external influences may have contributed to the 'event'.
What SESMA in BA has led to, is a pilot body who know they must stick to the prescribed procedure in their Flying Manual otherwise their actions will be there for all to see in the Safety Department the following day.
This has led to an undoubtably safer operating philosophy. Strong words you say? Ask yourself this (Go excluded as they have a QAR ). If you knew that your training department will know if you landed 20 knots fast at EDI because you did not plan for the 10 kt tail wind at 2000ft; would you continue at 500ft when you've only just selected Land Flap?
To the non-pilots on this thread - Landing 20kts fast increases the risk of running off the end SIGNIFICANTLY. A BA or GO pilot would Go Around if they were 20 kts fast. If a 'Low Frill' pilot found themselves in this position, it would be their pride that dictated whether they attempted a landing, not their safety systems.
BA/GO pilots do not have superior skill, just a bigger 'brother'.
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Secret Squirrel
A First Year FO on the Scarebus does not take home £3400. As a Cadet Entry Pilot it took me 4 years to reach that target. DEP's might just about clear £3000 but that would have to include overtime. I do hope you're not telling candidates this at their interview.
A First Year FO on the Scarebus does not take home £3400. As a Cadet Entry Pilot it took me 4 years to reach that target. DEP's might just about clear £3000 but that would have to include overtime. I do hope you're not telling candidates this at their interview.
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It's a shame that so many PPRUNE threads seem to end up with pilots slagging off each other's companies. We're all professionals aren't we? Does it really matter who we work for as long as we aim for a safe & efficient operation?
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A BA or GO pilot would Go Around if they were 20 kts fast. If a 'Low Frill' pilot found themselves in this position, it would be their pride that dictated whether they attempted a landing, not their safety systems.
Proof please, otherwise this looks very slanderous, and especialliy serious given you are directing such a statement towards the non-professional public, who have no real way of verifying whether this is indeed true.
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Yes, I agree we need proof - could the next pruner doing a LHR-EDI please does 20knt more than they should please, how do you expect us to believe you with your nosewheel intact. I will watch the new.bbc.co.uk site for bad reporting for the rest of the day. Any chance of ding it to the 19.30 flight ???
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The other night I was told of an "agressive attitude" incident from a low cost airline.
I am hoping that the pilot who told me of this incident will CHIRP it as I think that is the proper forum for such matters.
On a personal note i dont think that low cost sector of the industry has an "attitude" and these incidents are just a blip in the statistics or a reflection of the expantion in the low cost sector .
I am hoping that the pilot who told me of this incident will CHIRP it as I think that is the proper forum for such matters.
On a personal note i dont think that low cost sector of the industry has an "attitude" and these incidents are just a blip in the statistics or a reflection of the expantion in the low cost sector .
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congenstion and tempers will grow especially at airports wher mainline and no frills merge, ie DUB, EDI and GLA. At LHR, its every flag carrier for himself - Nigel and his birdseed vs Francois and his scarebus
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Land ASAP:
I can assure you that my friend at BA who is a DEP (recently debunked off the 75/76) and has a WHOLE ONE YEAR'S seniority took just that amount home last month with NO O/T. It's quite possible, however now that I think about it, that it could have included the deffered holiday pay from Xmas - did LHR get it in April?. I shall check and if I was wrong I shall apologise profusely!
I can assure you that my friend at BA who is a DEP (recently debunked off the 75/76) and has a WHOLE ONE YEAR'S seniority took just that amount home last month with NO O/T. It's quite possible, however now that I think about it, that it could have included the deffered holiday pay from Xmas - did LHR get it in April?. I shall check and if I was wrong I shall apologise profusely!
Mistrust in Management
Secret Squirrel,
Yes that bonus was paid in April so it would have inflated your friends take home pay by a weeks worth.
I gather that you ex City Flyer folk did not recieve the bonus, am I correct? Disgraceful if so.
Regards
Exeng
Yes that bonus was paid in April so it would have inflated your friends take home pay by a weeks worth.
I gather that you ex City Flyer folk did not recieve the bonus, am I correct? Disgraceful if so.
Regards
Exeng
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taking a cheap short at the 'no frills guys and girls'
i have to say as regards the general comments made re the chirp report, this looks like an excuse to throw some mud at the no frills pilots. Those inexperienced people who fly 600 - 900 hours per year, taking off and landing 4 - 6 times a day, not always into 10,000 ft runways. Anyone who thinks this is inexperience ,is obviously not a pilot. As for pilots being rude or inappropriate to ATC , then i would say that all companies have people like that. iIf your slinging mud , make sure you spread it around. Just give it a rest on the no frills, guys
Jet Blast Rat
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Meldrew
The "who" has a strong bearing on the "why". The allegations centre around the no frills airlines' cost-cutting tactics, which induce some mention of very rapid turn arounds and pressure to make published landing times in order to turn around in time for the return flight.
The "who" has a strong bearing on the "why". The allegations centre around the no frills airlines' cost-cutting tactics, which induce some mention of very rapid turn arounds and pressure to make published landing times in order to turn around in time for the return flight.
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Send Clowns:
Took the words right out of my keypad.
Meldrew:
I think that you'll find the Chirp report refers specifically to the Low Cost Operators. We're not talking an incident or two; because for Chirp to publish such a statement it has obviously become a common enough occurrence and very much a localised one at that. So yes, the mud might splash a few others here and there but the main pie splats firmly on it's intended target.
This is a difficult one. I genuinely feel for some of you guys because if the playing field was level I'm sure you guys and girls would be every bit as professional as we think we are. However, you cannot deny that your masters put unnecessary pressure on you to stick to the timetable. Not only that but they do it day after day after day. You may well argue that if it is the norm then coping is easier; but equally I would argue that your risk threshold in order to attain a goal is that much higher too.
I know this because at CFE, ocasionally, they tried to put such pressures on us, and ocasionally they made us balls it up. Most of the time, by God's good grace, we got away with it. In part because we didn't have SESMA, and in part because one or the other was switched on. But if I was to tell you that I once stood the levers up and heard the config warning because I had no flaps down, and that in order not to lose our slot we trundled down the runway while they were still travelling, most of you would be really shocked; as was I when I sat and thought about it. But I bet some of you have been there, haven't you?
If, instead of writing this I was reading it, I would most likely say what most of you are saying to yourselves now: "Not me, uh uh. I would have....." Well, maybe, maybe not. There's a very good saying in Spain which translates something like: 'It's easier to see the bullfight from the stalls than the ring'.
My point is this: I took a step back and promised that I would never allow myself to be placed in that situation again. I'd rather take the delay. Now I know it doesn't help when we rub salt in the wound; and I also know that the main culprit in the Chirp report isn't our orange brigade or Ba's own bastard son but what you people should be doing is taking a step back and wondering if you shouldn't make a stand against your managers and admit, even if only to yourselves, that more often than you care to acknowledge, management pressure you into acting less professionally than you actuallly are.
It's easy to be defensive when all and sundry take the oportunity to mud sling but the chirp report might just be the first step to improving conditions in the low cost airlines which are unthinkable in some of the other majors.
Took the words right out of my keypad.
Meldrew:
I think that you'll find the Chirp report refers specifically to the Low Cost Operators. We're not talking an incident or two; because for Chirp to publish such a statement it has obviously become a common enough occurrence and very much a localised one at that. So yes, the mud might splash a few others here and there but the main pie splats firmly on it's intended target.
This is a difficult one. I genuinely feel for some of you guys because if the playing field was level I'm sure you guys and girls would be every bit as professional as we think we are. However, you cannot deny that your masters put unnecessary pressure on you to stick to the timetable. Not only that but they do it day after day after day. You may well argue that if it is the norm then coping is easier; but equally I would argue that your risk threshold in order to attain a goal is that much higher too.
I know this because at CFE, ocasionally, they tried to put such pressures on us, and ocasionally they made us balls it up. Most of the time, by God's good grace, we got away with it. In part because we didn't have SESMA, and in part because one or the other was switched on. But if I was to tell you that I once stood the levers up and heard the config warning because I had no flaps down, and that in order not to lose our slot we trundled down the runway while they were still travelling, most of you would be really shocked; as was I when I sat and thought about it. But I bet some of you have been there, haven't you?
If, instead of writing this I was reading it, I would most likely say what most of you are saying to yourselves now: "Not me, uh uh. I would have....." Well, maybe, maybe not. There's a very good saying in Spain which translates something like: 'It's easier to see the bullfight from the stalls than the ring'.
My point is this: I took a step back and promised that I would never allow myself to be placed in that situation again. I'd rather take the delay. Now I know it doesn't help when we rub salt in the wound; and I also know that the main culprit in the Chirp report isn't our orange brigade or Ba's own bastard son but what you people should be doing is taking a step back and wondering if you shouldn't make a stand against your managers and admit, even if only to yourselves, that more often than you care to acknowledge, management pressure you into acting less professionally than you actuallly are.
It's easy to be defensive when all and sundry take the oportunity to mud sling but the chirp report might just be the first step to improving conditions in the low cost airlines which are unthinkable in some of the other majors.
