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Below the GS at SFO again

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Below the GS at SFO again

Old 30th Jul 2013, 16:52
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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FAA bans visual approaches by foreign airlines at San Francisco airport

FAA bans visual approaches by foreign airlines at San Francisco airport

By: STEPHEN TRIMBLE WASHINGTON DC

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has banned foreign pilots from making visual approaches to San Francisco airport runways 28 left and right.

The move follows the crash of a Asiana Airlines Boeing 777-200ER that killed three people on 6 July, a low approach by an Eva Air 777-300ER on 23 July that prompted a go-around command by the airport tower, and several missed approaches by pilots of foreign airlines since 1 June.

In all of the recent incidents, the foreign pilots were making visual approaches to Runway 28 left or right. The glideslope indicator that enables a stabilised approach to the runways has been deactivated since 1 June, forcing pilots making certain approaches to fly the aircraft visually.

"Until that [stabilised] approach is again available in late August, the FAA is assigning alternate instrument approaches to all foreign carriers," the agency says. "The FAA took this action after noticing an increase in go-arounds at [San Francisco airport] by some foreign carriers that were flying visual approaches into the airport."

The probable cause of the Asiana 777 crash remains under investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board. It is known that the crew failed to keep the aircraft on the proper glidepath, coming in too low and slow and clipping the main landing gear on the seawall at the runway threshold.

The Eva 777 flight crew also was flying a visual approach on 23 July when the tower directed the crew to fly a go-around. The air traffic controller alerted the pilots that they were approaching the runway at a "lower than normal altitude", the FAA says.

"Go-arounds are important safety tools for both pilot sand air traffic controllers", the FAA says. "They are routine, standardised procedures and can occur once a day or more at busy airports for various reasons."

The glideslope indicator on Runway is deactivated until late August for the airport to complete a construction project at the other end of the runway. The construction is part of the FAA's runway safety area improvement programme.

Read more expert analysis by David Learmount of aircraft accidents and incidents on his eponymous blog
I suppose it's politically incorrect to ban "certain airlines"

Last edited by SMOC; 30th Jul 2013 at 16:54.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:02
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Sourced from "Flightglobal" that got it from some blogger posting on "ProNews"?

Quick check of the FAA website doesn't have this in a NOTAM. I call shenanigans.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:06
  #143 (permalink)  

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Probable Hoax..
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:08
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Read more expert analysis by David Learmount
I couldn't agree more. Definitely a hoax !!
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:12
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Surely it must be April 1st?? ..... it's not??

Then I'm truly staggered that officialdom seems to saying that foreign pilots can no longer be trusted to fly a perfectly airworthy, fully functioning aircraft on sunny day to a landing at an international airport. What gives? So the only way in which a foreign aircraft can land at SFO is to rely mostly on automation? Isnt this an extreme case of removing the (foreign) Human Factor from (American) flying?

So if I read this right, humans can't be trusted to safely pilot an aircraft, so lets insist on more automation in the cockpit, have the crew to do less and less apart from system monitoring, less hands on experience so they are less capable... anyone else see where this is going? We need more hands on piloting skills - not less.

And before anyone thinks or says it - I'm not advocating training at the risk of passengers, but this is one step I never thought I'd see. Not sure this is the way things in aviation should be heading .... Will be interested to see what develops.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:19
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Suits me, sir. I'll have an IFR approach all the way please.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:28
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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It sounds perfectly reasonable, if an airline cannot train it's pilots to perform a visual approach safely then they shouldn't be flying them. Some would argue if this is the case then they shouldn't be flying at all.

To ensure safety either increase piloting standards or reduce the level to which they need to perform. Obviously the first option is preferable but if not practical then restrict them to coupled ILS approaches on long runways with higher minima and leave the non precision approaches in poor weather to pilots competent to fly them.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 17:33
  #148 (permalink)  
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It does smack of exceedingly poor journalism. All ATC need to do is to allocate an RNAV approach and 'decline' a request for a visual. No need for a 'ban'.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:59
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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It sounds perfectly reasonable, if an airline cannot train it's pilots to perform a visual approach safely then they shouldn't be flying them. Some would argue if this is the case then they shouldn't be flying at all.
I agree, I fly for an Asian carrier, and ours tries to teach visual approaches using HDG Select and VS mode while on autopilot. They even teach using the clock to time your downwind leg FFS! I'm glad I knew how to fly visuals before I came here, otherwise I might end up like Asiana 214.

The FAA already mandates this for LAHSO, so I don't see it as such a drastic step for them to take. Foreign carriers are excluded from that program as well.

Besides, American carriers rarely get fuel/time saving visuals in Asia, so why should the same courtesy be extended to Asian carriers in the US? When Air China or China Southern check into bay approach, they should be vectored out to 25 mile final, at 1500 feet, just like the Chinese do to all carriers going into Shanghai.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 19:22
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Couldn't agree more.... Any airline pilot who is not capable of flying a visual approach without autopilot, auto throttles and FDs should not be flying pax. I mean, come on guys! How basic do we have to get? This is embarrassing beyond belief.

Just about 99% of my approaches on 757/767 here at AA flying the Caribbean out of Miami are done visually, and i typically switch off the automation and hand fly them from 10,000ft and below.

You DON'T need Heading select and vertical speed to fly a visual! Just fly the Vasis/Papis...heck you don't even need them, just keep the 1000ft fixed distance markers on the correct point on the windshield and you got it made.

I weep for the profession...
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 20:48
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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FAA bans visual approaches by foreign airlines at San Francisco airport

Surely racial discrimination.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 20:57
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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So are they saying only native Americans can make visual approaches to 28L & 28R?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:11
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Now that you've explained it, no doubt NASA will publish your studies? OR maybe you mean ... WATCHING automation is easy, which is of course the whole point
No, I meant monitoring.

What exactly is it about monitoring that's so hard?

And I'm still waiting for that NASA report
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 21:37
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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What exactly is it about monitoring that's so hard?
Knowing, and understanding, just what it is that the magic box is supposed to be doing, so that one knows when it is going wrong - seems like the pilots that we are discussing just "watched" it without knowing enough to correct a diverging glide slope? If you don't understand what the magic box is doing, better to throw the whole thing away and just fly the beast.

Auto-land automation in aviation came along to help pilots land in low visibility, to reduce the number of weather related diversions, I doubt it was originally intended to take over the whole task ?

Bu having said that, I believe Eddie Rickenbacker refused to put auto-pilots in Eastern aircraft, saying something like - these guys are paid to fly, let them fly - until ..... it was proved to him that steady flight control and throttle inputs in the cruise ......... wait for it .... saved him money !!


When you're long gone my generation will be saying the same as you and then it'll be my turn. Then the next guys. Keeps going, progress I guess...
circa 1957. A Nav.instructor once told me that I'd never make a navigator so long as I had a hole in my a**** until I'd been over Berlin with the shells coming through the cockpit as I tried to work out a 3 -wind drift calculation looking through the drift sight. I never had to.

Later, as a Nav. instructor myself, I felt similarly about my own pupils trying to cope with the sextant in a bit of turbulence, but then along came INS ( and now GPS )and they never had to.

A friend lent me an iPhone the other day, couldn't even work out how to make a simple call - but then I rarely have to, little is so immediately important that it can't wait until I get home to my - large button - desktop landline.

But ... if the present, and future, generation of pilots are forced to use this offshoot of Bill Gates' warped imagination, the very least they can do is learn how to use it - properly.

Is that too much to expect ?

I now get new, young, students, admittedly only flying LSA's, who can't even correct an ETA mentally, and have to pull out an iPad, and if I ever cover up the flight instruments and ask them to maintain height and heading visually ........... don't start me.

World's Gone Mad.

QED.

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 30th Jul 2013 at 21:47.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 22:38
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I agree with AA73.

When I teach ab-initio students to fly circuits I expect them to be able to fly a visual approach with no external aids such as PAPIs before sending them first solo. If a student with less than twenty hours of total flying can achieve this then surely professional pilots can do the same.

If not they should go back to flight school.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 23:31
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OK465
Sunset at KSFO on July 23 was 2026
PDT or PST?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 23:43
  #157 (permalink)  
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Well, my brothers and sisters in aviation, I personally fly this visual several times a month, and we don't find it an unusual challenge of any kind, in fact, my colleagues at Southwest, United, Jet Blue, American etc etc, do this to the tune of several hundred times every day.

Dare I say, even Cathay has it sorted!

What is all this teeth-gnashing hand-wringing stuff about anyways?

Are there no real pilots out there anymore?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 23:46
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Australian controllers give visual approaches to Australian aircraft on clear days without being asked. Foreign aircraft would be kept on an instrument procedure unless specifically requesting a visual.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 00:00
  #159 (permalink)  
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- yes, but what happens to that on an RNAV-visua


BOAC, I will make a point of visiting the ATC facility in San Francisco sometime the next month or so, probably a good excuse not to consort with our lovely cabin crew at the hotel pub, which in any case my dear missus would object to, gotta be careful to say the least, see if I can provide some definitive guidance here.

The SFO airspace is intensely complicated, San Jose, Oakland, closely spaced runways at SFO that generate restrictions, resulting in GDP delays of many, many hours, throw all of the GA stuff into that mix, well, it's a dog's breakfast, for lack of a better descriptor.

Standby all y'all, answers on the way.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 00:51
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Buggs, going to a visual from an RNAV visual would be very easy unless you can not hand fly.
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