Southwest KLGA gear collapse.

[spooky3]

I think it was a reverse tailstrike

[Hotel Tango]

Flap62

If I'm involved in an accident where the aircraft integrity is compromised and I see any sign of fire I'm out of there PRONTO. You can stay and burn if you want to. The video clearly shows signs of flames from the fuselage scraping the runway. How am I (or the crew for that matter) to know that it is or isn't still burning when the aircraft comes to a stop. As it wasn't an expected emergency there are no emergency appliances at hand to assess the situation. I'm not waiting to find out. When I fly I follow the safety briefings and then I make my own personal safety briefing. One thing many unnecessarily fatal aircraft fire incidents have taught me is: "don't hang around"!

Edited from "or" to "and" (which was my intended meaning).

[BOAC]

HT - I take it you would not mind evacuating into a running engine then?

[Volume]

You can stay and burn if you want to

Unfortunately it is not that easy. By opening the emergency exit you may just allow fire to get into the cabin, so because you open it and are out quickly, somebody else will burn. You decide, you do not ask him if he wants to! People running around the aircraft will also slow down emergency vehicles entering the best position for firefighting. This may also mean that those who got out quickly will kill those that are at the end of the row.
I am quite sure of what I will do in such a case, which will be a panic reaction and no fully thought through decision, I will be out asap as well. But I may have to live with with the consequences ever after. I may not like to read the full NTSB report...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

How am I (or the crew for that matter) to know that it is or isn't still burning when the aircraft comes to a stop.

Well the pilots would be gathering information from, ATC, the fire service, possibly other aircraft and the cabin crew. This allows them to make the most informed decision that is possible - the reason that sometimes a delayed instruction to evacuate is sometimes apparent.

You just make up your own procedures and then you're just going to do one without any of that gouge? As Volume says you might just end up killing everybody else.

[Hotel Tango]

Being ATC myself I'm well aware of what ATC may or may not be able to see. I would also catergorically say that I wouldn't rely on what a guy in a cab possibly miles away can see. Well, survival, like it or not, comes down to the individual. You can all wait like sheep if you want. BOAC don't be a silly billy, I know when an engine is running. Why do you retired pilots think that ALL pax are dumb and inexperienced? I'd like to see you just sit there and wait it out. Just the way pilots and CC have to make a judgement, so does a passenger. There are plenty of examples out there of WRONG judgements made by FD crew. LSM, as I mentioned, in this instance the fire service is not there and may not be there for a minute or more. That can also be the difference between life and death. There is no 100% full proof procedure like it or not. One makes a judgement taking into account the circumstances and one executes one's plan of action. Some of you alude to the fact that my actions may kill others. I would certainly hope not. However, I would counter that with the strong argument that the inaction of either myself or others may kill me!

[Flap62]

gcal and Hotel Tango.

Other posters have since pointed out the flaws in you "every man for himself" policy.

gcal, if the aircraft comes to a halt and your friend could see it was safe, why would they get out? So from a tiny window you can see everything? So the pilots and all the experienced cabin crew (who are also trained to make an assessment and initiate an evacuation in certain circumstances) know less than your "aviation expert" do they? A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

Hotel Tango, you say if you swap signs of fire you'd initiate an evac on your own. A high speed stop will cause a great amount of smoke from the gear, perhaps a few flames. Going to get out? Say an engine's burning. That doesn't mean there's any real threat to the cabin, even though it might look spectacular it's isolated. Blow a slide with your tiny situational awareness and you could be sending people down slides into running engines. Also the aircraft now can't move. The pilot may have been about to reposition the aircraft so that fire was blown away from the cabin, you've just stopped him from doing that. Fire might now be a threat to the cabin when there was no need and as has been pointed out, the doors are now open allowing it in. But then again, as you're an expert you'll know all this!

[Speed of Sound]

Why wait when you can see it is safe? Why not use your own initiative?

I would counter that with the strong argument that the inaction of either myself or others may kill me!

Every serious study in the last thirty years (and probably more!) shows that a managed evacuation is more efficient, and leads to less overall injuries than a free for all.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

HT, ok, but there were no signs of fire on the video were there, sparking yes but no fire. If I'd been the pilot of Southwest and asked you as ATC what you could see and you'd told me I was on fire I'd be pretty miffed to find out it was only sparks.

If you'd been on board an aircraft which dinged the wingtip on landing, lots of sparks, smoke and leaking fuel would you evacuate then?

I'm not disagreeing with you just trying to understand your mindset. Might help me to prevent people popping doors and chutes unecessarily in the future.

[sitigeltfel]

A good example of CC initiating an evacuation when communications have broken down......

RJ engine fire on start up, Edinburgh airport.

‘Any unusual or abnormal occurrence, either
visual, e.g. refuelling truck fire, cabin fire, engine
fire, smoke in the cabin, etc, or audible, e.g., noise,
vibrations, etc, on any part of the aircraft, internal
or external, must be reported to the Captain.
However should a Crew Member become aware
of a situation which is clearly catastrophic they
should initiate an evacuation. He/She shall alert
all Crew Members by verbal communication,
passenger address, interphone or loud hailer and
immediately proceed with an evacuation as soon
as the aircraft has stopped.’
‘The good judgement of cabin crew is imperative
in order to evaluate the situation before initiating
an evacuation.
‘Unless there is immediate danger Cabin Crew
should wait 15 seconds.
This period of time
allows the Flight Crew to perform shut down
checks and establish whether an evacuation is
required. If no flight deck command is received
after 15 seconds the SCCM (Purser) should
investigate by either calling on the interphone or
visiting the flight deck.’
‘Emergency conditions, which would require
Cabin Crew to initiate evacuation, include:
1.
A self-sustaining aircraft fire
2.
Dense smoke in the cabin
3.
An extreme and unusual aircraft attitude
4.
Any time the passengers are in immediate
danger
5.
Unusual sounds prior to stopping (loud
scraping or tearing of the aircraft
structure)

Experience + common sense = lives saved.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

If there had been a PA from the flight deck saying something like "cabin crew standby, ladies and gentlemen stay seated", for example, what would you have done then?

[filejw]

Spooke 3....me thinks you are not far off. Pure speculation but if you look at one of the videos taken from inside a/c at touchdown the wing gives an impression of being bit nose low.

[Hotel Tango]

LSM, since the moderator has seen fit to remove a number of posts, I fear that the debate has possibly lost some of its context. In answer to my mindset, it's complicated. If the crew announced we have a nosewheel gear failure and will be making an emergency landing, I would know that the fire and emergency crews would be in position and immediately be able to assess the situation. I'm confident that in such a scenario I would sit tight and await instructions. In a case such as this particular SWA accident, it is an unforeseen situation. There was evidence of fire (sparking if you wish) as confirmed on the video. The tower could be some way away and not be able to see a small fire in the wheel well. The 'crash' button will only just have been activated and the emergency services may take anything up to 5 minutes to reach the scene. I think that it would take a great deal of sang froid to sit there for more than perhaps 10 - 20 seconds without positive information from the crew. I haven't had time to review the SWA cabin video a second time, but did I not hear one of the CC make a PA to the effect that pax should sit down "beacuse we haven't got there yet"? I take it she was refering to the gate. Had she not realised the aircraft had, for a better word, crashed? I appreciate the training you all get in your job (btw my wife is ex CC), as we do in ours. However, it doesn't preclude highly trained well-intentioned individuals making mistakes or being slow - possibly from shock or injury - in taking the necessary action. I believe that there is only a very short window of "compliance" in most of us before personal survival instincts kick in. Bottom line, is that it is difficult for any of us, trained and untrained, to know for certain how we would react in a real scenario. It will come down to individuals' judgement on the day. My argument is that, yes I could indeed make the wrong judgement, but despite all the training in the world, so could the professionals - as has been the case in a number of past accidents.

[Lonewolf_50]

I thought only Koreans didn't know how to land jet aircraft?

Can we for once give this "it must be the nationality" noise a rest?

I have always been told to land my 737 on the main wheels first, and that means the nose of the aircraft is angled a few degrees up, not down.

One hopes that all pilots are likewise taught. (hmm, never flew a tail dragger, I'd need to review the standard techniques on that).

Yes, a lack of flair can lead to misjudged flare.

A few posts back, someone mentioned what looked like a "bunt" in the end game before touch down. If that's what happened, what was being "corrected for" right before touchdown?

[Speed of Sound]

My argument is that, yes I could indeed make the wrong judgement, but despite all the training in the world, so could the professionals - as has been the case in a number of past accidents.

At the risk of being controversial I would suggest that the trained professionals are much less likely to make a mistake than you are.

SOPs are not alway right in all circumstances, but they are the result of many hundreds of hours of research and examination of every conceivable option. They are then modified by years of real time and real life incidents which increase our understanding.

They trump your ten seconds of "! I need to get off! Do I do it now or wait for a sign?"

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

think that it would take a great deal of sang froid to sit there for more than perhaps 10 - 20 seconds without positive information from the crew

You might have missed my other post which asked -

If there had been a PA from the flight deck saying something like "cabin crew standby, ladies and gentlemen stay seated", for example, what would you have done then?

Not sure if this happened or not but would that have been enough to quell your instinct to do a runner, at least for more than twenty seconds or so?

[canyonblue]

By opening the emergency exit you may just allow fire to get into the cabin, so because you open it and are out quickly, somebody else will burn.

Very true. Just think MDW in winter when the provisioners open the rear door and the cabin gets a nice blast of Arctic air, the venturi effect would drag a fire into the cabin.

[lincman]

NLG Collapse

Looking at the angle of incidence in the video on page 12, the aircraft looks like it hit the runway at a good nose-down angle. This is borne out by noting the angle when the aircraft comes to a stop – it looks about the same angle. Moreover, in the video, the aircraft does not appear to flare. It hit the runway so hard, it knocked the camera out of the pax’s hands. Then there is the lone nose wheel/tire (or maybe just the tire ) rolling behind the aircraft. I have been involved with other types where the NLG hit the runway first, and where the nose wheels broke off or the axle broke – releasing the nosewheels. This incident must have hit so hard, it also broke the nose leg (or pushed it up into the fuselage). Some of the fire could have been from the damping fluid (oil) in the NLG strut.

[Speed of Sound]

Moreover, in the video, the aircraft does not appear to flare.

Nor does it in at least half a dozen youtube videos of normal 737 landings filmed from over-wing seats.

I agree that the cause of this accident was most likely a hard, nose-first landing but I can't see how anyone can say this for sure from the video.

[Hotel Tango]

SoS, in theory one would think so, I agree. But it's not 100% guaranteed and, as I said, there comes a moment when self preservation kicks in. With a hundred plus pax on board there will be many different reactions. Some may sit meekly (in shock) waiting to be told what to do, some may bolt for the exits and some may try and appraise the situation and act, in their mindset, accordingly. Interestingly I just asked my wife (ex CC) what she would do in the SWA scenario. Her initial reply was "go immediately for the nearest exit". Within a few seconds she backtracked (training must have kicked in) and decided that she would await crew instructions. I found that interesting, but I'm no psychoanalyst.