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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 5th Aug 2013, 19:31
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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It's always seemed to me that reading back a clearance in a slightly different way (i.e. not just word-for-word parroting of the controller's instructions) to show you've understood is a good idea. In the Kuala Lumpur example, if in reply to "XYZ cleared two four zero zero feet" the crew had said something like "XYZ descending four hundred feet", this would have saved the day.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 00:20
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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Nicely put, Daily - I agree 100%

The point surely is that standardization is the most important lesson here.

Yes; some folk - flight deck or ATC - may think they are very clever and professional just because they sound cool and slick with their invented calls and linguistic shortcuts, but if they are using non-standard phrases that even just one crew does not understand one day, and that crew then taxis into an aircraft taking off, or descends into the flightpath of another aircraft and crashes - how are they going to feel?

Would they be able to sleep at night?

Some ICAO phrases do seem laborious, and I do understand why some folk feel the need to make things slicker, but they must understand that non-standard phraseology could lead to disaster one day. As I've said; we were given totally the wrong QNH going into Mexico, purely because the controller was trying to save time by making his own invented verbal shortcut. Fine for him, but what if we had stuffed the aircraft into the ground in IMC conditions because we had the wrong QNH set?
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 01:17
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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flyboymike,
Would you be one of THESE guys....

Unfortunately there is no way to address this issue without coming off as a complete . I've found that pilots take these types of criticisms personally
Personally, I agree, about 75% or more of US Yanks sound terrible on the radio, here and overseas.

I'll bet that RJ gets your international a lot, like twice a month to YYZ. Don't take it personally, I've asked guys, if the flew international; their answer was, "sure, we go to Toronto and Montreal."

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 6th Aug 2013 at 01:24.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 02:00
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Despite years of international USAF flying, the Canadians I work with taught, and demanded, good ICAO R/T.

Not that many French would recognize it.

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 6th Aug 2013 at 02:01.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 05:53
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Point or Decimal ?

Not sure why Decimal is preferred to Point - given that the latter is a lot shorter. I suspect that it may be because French was an important language in the early days of ICAO and the decimal seperator in French is "vergul" or comma in English. Point is the thousands seperator. Quite a lot of scope for confusion there !

Any History/Linguistic experts out there know the real reason ?
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 15:33
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
I'll bet that RJ gets your international a lot, like twice a month to YYZ. Don't take it personally, I've asked guys, if the flew international; their answer was, "sure, we go to Toronto and Montreal."
Don't be ridiculous, I also go to YEG, YOW, YWG and even Bahamas and Mexico sometimes.

Too bad I have no idea what that has to do with the issue at hand, maybe if I were a little smarter....As it is, half the time when I hear "AyrChiaKah-goh" or "Korrrrreanayr" check in, I haven't the foggiest what language they're speaking, never mind what phraseology.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 15:50
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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The issue is, in the US, one can get away with our slang, silly check-ins, and the like, overseas it's a problem and many Yanks sound like hicks.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 16:07
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Like I said, at least we actually speak English, which is more than a great many operators can claim. Do I need to post the link to the legendary exchange between JFK Ground and a CAAC 747?
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 16:22
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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My mis-spent youth [70- 79]was predominantly spent controlling in East Anglia and over/through the London TMA. USAF aircrew were OK - perhaps because I got used to them, maybe because they were taught 'proper' at Base Instrument Schools at Bentwaters/Woodbridge, Lakenheath, Mildenhall and Upper Heyford.

There were variations, of course - 'Diverse Recovery' (wozzat?), the desire to burn fuel in holding patterns instead of getting on with it. But they spoke NATO, and were easy to handle in the vast numbers they had back then.

Perhaps being 'overseas' focussed their minds? Perhaps we (the RAF) taught them proper, so that you said Hazeborough instead of Happisburg? we all melded happily, thanks to ATCRU USAFLOs.

Could that work in the US? "No way, Juan"
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 16:32
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Flyboymike

So, your solution is only native English speakers can fly, or at least, use the radios. Even the Brits, who invented English, have trouble with US slang and what passes for Aviation English. Lastly, please review the FAA's AIM and show us where "checkin' at three five oh" or "with you" is found.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 16:34
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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I've offered no solutions whatsoever (although it might interest you that I'm NOT a native speaker, in fact, English is my fourth language). I leave that to smart people.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 16:46
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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Clearance Readback Correct

In the UK etc when a clearance is read back the controller is obliged to listen and report to the pilot that the clearance readback is correct. Is this true in the US? I have not seen anything to say so, and always assumed that reading back the clearance gave the controller the chance to correct errors, but that the controller was not legally obliged to do so. It is unusual for a US controller to tell me that I was "correct".

If the controller does not challenge me, I assume that my readback was correct.

I am particularly interested in clearances received in flight, such as altitude assignments. For example if a pilot mis-hears an assignment to climb to FL 310, reads back FL330, and the controller does not reply. Nor does the controller say "clearance readback correct". The pilot then climbs to 330 and is busted.

Does he have an argument for perhaps reducing the penalty?
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:24
  #353 (permalink)  
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Not sure why Decimal is preferred to Point - given that the latter is a lot shorter.
Because point can be a noun, verb etc.. Decimal is just decimal! Especially confusing when the controller says, 'go to Point 6' - I never did find it
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:33
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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"Point 6"

It's in the AIM for those who fly in the US.
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:56
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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Angel we can learn from each other.

I actually like "point"... one syllable, day-cee-mal...count them...

I also like "point out approved" (ATC stuff) rather than the VERY long winded way of saying it in other parts of the world.

As for the rest of the "standard" r/t...well...
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Old 6th Aug 2013, 18:02
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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The lack of syllables in a word isn't the basis for forming standard phraseology. Indeed multiple syllable words are often easier to decipher through static which is the main reason for using them.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 00:11
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boof
In the UK etc when a clearance is read back the controller is obliged to listen and report to the pilot that the clearance readback is correct.
That is not the case in Oz. The controllers do not acknowledge a correct readback.

Originally Posted by Boof
I am particularly interested in clearances received in flight, such as altitude assignments. For example if a pilot mis-hears an assignment to climb to FL 310, reads back FL330, and the controller does not reply. Nor does the controller say "clearance readback correct". The pilot then climbs to 330 and is busted.
The controller would be required to challenge the incorrect readback, would he not? If he did not, then the crew can hardly be busted, in fact I'd say "drop on your head, play the tape, I read back FL310 and you should have corrected it". That's what a closed-loop communication procedure is all about.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 04:46
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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" In the UK etc when a clearance is read back the controller is obliged to listen and report to the pilot that the clearance readback is correct. Is this true in the US? I have not seen anything to say so, and always assumed that reading back the clearance gave the controller the chance to correct errors, but that the controller was not legally obliged to do so. It is unusual for a US controller to tell me that I was "correct". "

In the U.S., for a ground delivered IFR clearance anyway.....they always say "readback correct", or give corrections if needed.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 07:36
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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Boofhead,

If I read your post correctly then I think you are a little confused. UK ATC do not reply with "readback correct" for anything other than giving the initial clearance on the ground, this is the same the world over. If they said it after every in-flight clearance nobody would get a word in on a busy frequency.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 08:12
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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In fact that's not correct and there are many places where a readback of a readback is commonplace. Indians, for example, for some cultural reason fly around needing the readback readback and ending their own readbacks with, "...confirm?"

I wouldn't go using the JFK/China exchange as an example of anything other than disgraceful controlling. So bad the poster has taken it down from youtube I believe. The same New Yorker would be hopelessly lost in Peking, wandering the streets asking for a hot dog and not knowing a single word of the local lingo, unlike the Chinaman he blasted on the radio.

Sadly, the Canucks are indistinguishable from the yanks, I'm afraid. Comes from being on the same airwaves presumably. Bad RT and folksy, yokel terminology spreads on VHF exactly like a virus and you now have Indians "checkin' in, on handover" and pilots from the 'stans with their squawk codes "...comin' down" or in some cases even "... comin' up." Even ATC catch it with middle-east controllers requesting pilots to "...say your altitude" instead of "report." Every second pilot around the world is beginning a readback with, "...Okay understand."

The Brits aren't much better with "fully" this and that which has crept in. You're either ready or not. Established or not.

It's not hard; stop making excuses. There's a book, just read it.
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