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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 30th Jul 2013, 10:29
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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You have no idea what you're talking about.....especially with americans flying out of north america,for example europe....they have trouble to understand english without "the american" accent, for example british pilots and australians have absolutely no problem to undestand correctly spoken english,but without american accent....so I wouldn't say that there is problem with pilots poor english knowledge.....as an ATC I know what I'm talking about,because from my position,as a one who is instructing pilots it is just simple....because pilot is responding,I'm familiar with my airspace,I know all waypoints and procedures,which is not case for pilot,who flies through my airspace maybe 10x per year,so he cannot remember it,and thus react promptly on my instructions.....and this happens with americans over my airspace also....especially when I use ICAO phraseology,they have problem to understand....just because they are used to slang and "open language" or some kind of freestyle....over US airspace...I just hope it won't result in accident somewhere over congested area in US...
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 10:41
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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The system works very well in the US
I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Belief in something does not necessarily mean that it is true. The 'system' does work, but according to some of us who visit and are used to ICAO standards being implemented in a disciplined environment, not well.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 10:50
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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This thread is a joke. The system works very well in the US. The system does not work when foreign carriers employ pilots that: A can't fly visual approaches, and B, can't speak or understand English.
Denial. Nature's alternative to fixing a simple problem. Often used when one's culture is offended.

This is aviation safety and effective communications we're talking about, not performance art. The above posted quotes of non-standard language used by some controllers are examples of performance art, not effective communications that an international audience can understand. If you want to put on a show, go sign up for amateur night at the local comedy club. This stuff has no place in aviation.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 11:00
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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You have no idea what you're talking about.....especially with americans flying out of north america,for example europe....they have trouble to understand english without "the american" accent, for example british pilots and australians have absolutely no problem to undestand correctly spoken english,but without american accent....so I wouldn't say that there is problem with pilots poor english knowledge.....as an ATC I know what I'm talking about,because from my position,as a one who is instructing pilots it is just simple....because pilot is responding,I'm familiar with my airspace,I know all waypoints and procedures,which is not case for pilot,who flies through my airspace maybe 10x per year,so he cannot remember it,and thus react promptly on my instructions.....and this happens with americans over my airspace also....especially when I use ICAO phraseology,they have problem to understand....just because they are used to slang and "open language" or some kind of freestyle....over US airspace...I just hope it won't result in accident somewhere over congested area in US...
Might one hope that ATCO's English is more "correctly spoken" than the above is written? (If not, difficulties in understanding could be entirely understandable.)

It is also worth noting the the British and Aussies (as well as all English speakers) have accents, as well. Is an American's difficulty in understanding a British accent any different than the converse?

And lest anyone try to lay claim to the "pure" version of the language, it should be remembered that all language evolves. Perhaps the purest modern variant of the "King's English" might be that which was left with the colonials across the pond, a couple of centuries ago.

Last edited by Checkerboard 13; 30th Jul 2013 at 11:10.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 11:07
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

American slang is much worse than non-english. I really enjoy lessons in French and Spanish and Arabic you get outside of the US. Excellent for situational awareness. Also, and I've said this before, I have to translate ALL the time for Brits and Aussies flying for a certain ME and Brit carrier in Afrika. So much for your 13 exams and phraseology handbook. I also have said this before on PPRuNe, the airman phraseology handbook is just another nitpicky, whingy, whiny Lymey invention to use to attempt to look down on aviators from elsewhere and assert their position as masters of the aviation world. But seriously, Americans are bad pilots(they must be because they need 1500 hours to fly 121), undisciplined and Vickers and Airbus will soon take over the world. Visual approach and handflying skills bad, airman phraseology and 200 hour FO's who pay to fly good. All you need to be a good pilot is the inability to think outside the box, 100,000 euros for training and your own type rating, excellent airman phraseology, 13 written tests, a MCC course, 200 hours, 50 words per minute typing ability for the fms/fmc, a functional autopilot, an ils, and no x-wind. You will never stall an Airbus, handfly a visual, or have an unskilled controller trying to fly you into a mountain. Enjoy your 200,000 euro a year job!
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 12:43
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst I am all for standardisation and correct phraseology, I found this highly amusing and probably acceptable for domestic ops between 'locals'.

Boston John, a tower controller at Boston, Massachusetts has a bit of a following on youtube. I thought the "Love of my Life " at 3:05 was classic, but at 3:10, all is back to a professional level.

http://

Not everyone likes it though,


It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it.

Last edited by Two_dogs; 30th Jul 2013 at 12:53. Reason: Cause I can
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 13:17
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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I have mixed views on "Boston John", and much of that hinges on the traffic levels at the time. Was this night traffic? Probably best to avoid the habit of non-English messages, though - the 2nd clip sums that up quite neatly.

Although . OK, an affectation, perhaps, but I sort of like his emphasis on words like "crossss RW27". That's not going to lead to a mistake, and obviates the need for further messages and keeps the traffic flow going.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:53
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Readback

Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left.
I am only a lowly PPL with 130 hours of experience, but I hope this is a legitimate question: WTF is the proper readback to such a request??

Last edited by douglasheld; 30th Jul 2013 at 18:56.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:55
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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"Line up and wait callsignxx"
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 18:57
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Honestly I think the best I would muster, after mental translation, would be "line up immediate callsign", followed by "lined up".
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 19:01
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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My read back would be along the lines of " Line up and wait on Runway (XX), American XXX, we'll be ready."

Have had several of these types of clearances and honestly, it's no big deal. You guys are making way too much out of this. Can we just accept the fact that the system works fine on both sides of the pond?

Last edited by aa73; 30th Jul 2013 at 19:01.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 19:36
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Systems work well on both sides of the Pond. It tends to go to rats when people cross Ponds. Which is why things like ICAO were invented.

"Hey, 73, you're good to go after the three in front. Follow the herd."

Last edited by MPN11; 30th Jul 2013 at 19:37.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 20:17
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Understood, wilco,,73

Pretty clear
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 23:38
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pigboat View Post
What's the difference between a hectopascal and a millibar?
Same as the difference between cycles per second and Hertz - new name for the old measure, using someone's name. The SI people like to do this.
The UK has notified a difference, and still uses millibars.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 00:49
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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USA:

Quote:
Taxi into position runway 1, traffic landing runway 28, keep it moving -- be ready to go after the Learjet crossing right to left, company on a two mile final for runway 28
ROTW:

Quote:
Line up and wait 01, expedite, be ready immediate
Unless the US tower controller rulebook has been changed, he/she must advise if traffic is taking off or landing on an intersecting runway...maybe only a letter of agreement thing at big airports, but always my experience.

As always, ICAO may know better.

Last edited by acroguy; 31st Jul 2013 at 00:58.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 01:01
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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So mb to HPa was merely a cosmetic change with no basis in logic. It could have been called a puncheon and would have made as much sense.

Last edited by pigboat; 31st Jul 2013 at 01:03.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 03:54
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Two sides of my Coin

Side 1

for the "Readback" question, as it's a Clearance where presumably all the qualifying info is vital - in FULL so:-

"Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the
Learjet crossing right to left - Callsign"

iIf I neglected to add, say, "... follow the Learjet ..." then ATC 'should' (IMO) question me. My reception of that 'Restriction' may have been blocked? ATC should retransmit on the assumption that ai may (reasonably) go before the Learjet. Don't think tyat couldn't happen - absolutely everybody has been blocked or got half a call. Basically, If it's important for the clearance 1) ATC say it, 2) I Read it back 3) ATC correct if required. If it's not important they shouldn't / needn't say it.

Side 2

Best call ever heard, (Civvy) Some guy (sounded Texan to me) held high flowing out East over JFK, finally after a few RQSTs got:-

" Turn *** inbound descend *** immediate, cleared *** approach
no height/speed restriction "

Out came the immortal, succinct and silently applauded by all Readback:-

"...... YeeeHaaah .... "

It"s true, even those of us bitching away about standardisation would really like to be John Wayne.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 09:14
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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'The UK has notified a difference, and still uses millibars'


Where do you work/fly? Nats at least uses Hp, been mandated for a few months now

Last edited by Fargo Boyle; 31st Jul 2013 at 09:15. Reason: Cant speell
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 12:28
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fargo Boyle View Post
'The UK has notified a difference, and still uses millibars'

Where do you work/fly? Nats at least uses Hp, been mandated for a few months now
It's a fair cop, I haven't been flying for some time and my information is out of date - it was correct when HPa was introduced and I hadn't realised it had changed. Sorry!
(Although reading the latest CAP413 I can't find any reference to the change except to that of changing the words in the document itself - no mention of the removal of the difference).

I note that Hectopascals are now only said when the number is less than 1000, presumably because that's when it could be confused with inHg.
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 15:06
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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I've always accepted the non standard R/T and non English R/T in foreign airspace as a challenge, rather than as an annoyance.
We are guests in foreign airspace and cannot expect the locals to refrain from talking to each other in their own language. It doesn't matter what ICAO says, because ICAO cannot impose R/T rules, it can only recommend. So, when you fly between Urumqi and Shanghai, you'll hear lots of Mandarin R/T; and between Buenos Aires and Cochabamba you'll hear lots of Spanish R/T; between Khartoum and Cairo you'll hear lots of Arabic R/T . . . that's just the way the cookie crumbles, and it won't change in our lifetime.
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