Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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I thought all airline pilots could do visual approaches because the windshield view makes it quite easy. How did these four on a clear day hit the rocks and nobody say anything? How can you prevent this from happening again? I have no idea unless pilots look out the window and understand where they should be. Autolands are not always available. We can't lower standards to the lowest common denominator and be efficient in ATC. Either learn how to fly all approaches, including visuals, or get out of your seat.
While I do not disagree that all of the above deserve attention, it still cannot explain how an experienced crew (or even an inexperienced crew) allowed their airspeed to bleed off to just over 100 kts
The method at my airline - 744/767/737 - is if you handfly on approach, take the auto throttle out, so everything is back to basics and makes sense and you're not expecting anything to happen for you. Not sure about the 777, but maybe there is some merit in this line of thinking for that type, too.
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It would be interesting to hear what was discussed on the approach briefing, if there was one, prior to tod.
Did the new check airman in the right seat have the trainee scroll thru the map page and point out possible speed/alt hoowahs?
Did he brief the trainee on the approach notes emphasizing dme and altitudes and the configuration which would put them in the best energy state for a stabilized app by 1000 ft?
Did he make the trainee use the sec flt plan for possible runway changes?
Did he have the trainee explain the ma procedure for their primary/sec flt plan as written in their procedures?
These would be just a few of the items, but it lets the trainee know just WHO is in command, and on this flight there was no one in that capacity.
Did the new check airman in the right seat have the trainee scroll thru the map page and point out possible speed/alt hoowahs?
Did he brief the trainee on the approach notes emphasizing dme and altitudes and the configuration which would put them in the best energy state for a stabilized app by 1000 ft?
Did he make the trainee use the sec flt plan for possible runway changes?
Did he have the trainee explain the ma procedure for their primary/sec flt plan as written in their procedures?
These would be just a few of the items, but it lets the trainee know just WHO is in command, and on this flight there was no one in that capacity.
if I'm not happy at 1000ft. I will take control
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flying changes:
We have yet to learn how much fuel remaining Asiana had on board when commencing the visual.
How about if I'm not happy at 1,000' we are going around. If the situation is that bad, starting over vs salvaging is a better choice.
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I used 500 ft because at 1,000 you can still fix it safely and try to salvage the approach. Below 500 ft you have to really be on it. They were at 100 ft a half mile out slow and not correcting. I may be a bigot but I have a reason to be if this is standard operating procedures for them. Either conform or don't come here. We don't fly like that. You shouldn't be allowed to. The United flight waiting for departure could have easily been destroyed because of their lack of airmanship. But I am a bigot so shouldn't have an opinion. Bye.
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re 2346 and "otto" throttle
I'll bet you fly for american ??
" children of the magenta"
well worth watching for the laypersons like myself re flying
IMO- it sounds like a preview of what happened at SFO !!
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I flew for AA but the magenta line was only a guide for me. Not what I flew. Sometimes you had to fly what ever was neccesary to do what you had to do. We could do all approaches, precision, non precision and visuals with no problem. Nobody else should have a problem either.
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AA pilots I flew with were not children of magenta. We could all fly raw data NDB and VOR approaches with no magenta. One dark night I was approaching an airport in East part of Dominican Republic and was told one minute out that the VOR was out and they were doing the NDB approach so in the clouds we reconfigured and broke out at 800 ft to land with a PAPI totally down to a 1.5 degree glide slope so we knew we were low so leveled to make it right. Pilots can not let stuff like this hurt them. Just be smart and plan ahead. We asked all these questions prior to departure but got nothing from company.
The 777 is flown with the autothrottle on because of the autotrim system. Power changes are trimmed away.
If you leave the a/t off, YOU fly the plane while someone ELSE is trimming.
If you leave the a/t off, YOU fly the plane while someone ELSE is trimming.
If you leave the a/t off, YOU fly the plane while someone ELSE is trimming.
You sure about that? How about the pilot flying handling the thrust levers and trim, just like we have done since pitch trim was invented some time shortly after 1901?
Re. the fatalities caused by fire and rescue teams, it is some years ago that a "night survivable accident" major exercise was conducted at YSSY.
In the post exercise wash-up, one conclusion was that, had it been a real situation, a major cause of fatalities would have been the fire appliances and other RFFS vehicles hitting those already evacuated.
I would not be too quick to criticise the emergency personnel, such fatalities or injuries are possible, and the risk of same can never be zero. Getting the foam on the fire is the first priority, for all the obvious reasons.
There is nothing remotely challenging about a visual approach to runways 28 at KSFO, for a pilot of the expected competence of one flying any transport aircraft.
However, having said that, cast your minds back to the JAL DC-8 that didn't even make the threshold, but flopped in the water well short. It was subsequently determined that the aircraft had actually touched the bridge, but this did not cause the accident.
Last edited by LeadSled; 21st Jul 2013 at 04:06.
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From a Boeing trip7 manual;
Autothrottle Use;
Autothrottle use is recommended during all phases of flight. When in manual
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may
be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
Autothrottle Use;
Autothrottle use is recommended during all phases of flight. When in manual
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may
be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
LeadSled:
Absolutely positive. But let me rephrase.
If you leave the a/t off, YOU fly the plane while SOMETHING else is trimming, --> the autotrim system!
Every time you change power on the underslung engines, the aircraft will retrim, if the airspeed remains the same.
This is unlike all other, older Boeing aircraft, where you have to compensate yourself for the underslung engines while flying.
If you leave the autothrottle off in a 777, it is sort of "more demanding" to manually fly the airplane, because you have to compensate for the autotrim system in a way that you have never done on another a/c type before. It is "an annoying way of flying". It can be done though. But you have to be aware of the little details.
foxniner,
You sure about that? How about the pilot flying handling the thrust levers and trim
You sure about that? How about the pilot flying handling the thrust levers and trim
If you leave the a/t off, YOU fly the plane while SOMETHING else is trimming, --> the autotrim system!
Every time you change power on the underslung engines, the aircraft will retrim, if the airspeed remains the same.
This is unlike all other, older Boeing aircraft, where you have to compensate yourself for the underslung engines while flying.
If you leave the autothrottle off in a 777, it is sort of "more demanding" to manually fly the airplane, because you have to compensate for the autotrim system in a way that you have never done on another a/c type before. It is "an annoying way of flying". It can be done though. But you have to be aware of the little details.
Last edited by fox niner; 21st Jul 2013 at 07:21.
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Originally Posted by fox niner
If you leave the autothrottle off in a 777, it is sort of "more demanding" to manually fly the airplane, because you have to compensate for the autotrim system in a way that you have never done on another a/c type before. It is "an annoying way of flying". It can be done though. But you have to be aware of the little details.
When flying the A320 with A/P off and A/T off, there's no need to trim as the computers will prevent pitch change because of in/decreasing thrust (with A/T on or off). Are you telling me that on the T7 with A/T off, there's some strange function that has the pilot manually compensating/fighting against some special auto trim function? Please explain if that's the case, because that appears to be a very strange design feature! (NOT trying to start a Airbus-Boeing war, just being curious!)
Cagedh:
I have exactly 0.00 hours flight experience in an Airbus. Only Boeing. But if I understand the posting you just made, the 777 autotrim function works in a similar way as on the Airbus. It prevents pitch changes by staying in trim. This is unlike any other previous Boeing type, such as the 737,747,757,767.
Also, the autotrim function on the 777 can not be switched off. It is simply there all the time. It also does not have any modes or features. it is always there to help you or annoy you.
I have exactly 0.00 hours flight experience in an Airbus. Only Boeing. But if I understand the posting you just made, the 777 autotrim function works in a similar way as on the Airbus. It prevents pitch changes by staying in trim. This is unlike any other previous Boeing type, such as the 737,747,757,767.
Also, the autotrim function on the 777 can not be switched off. It is simply there all the time. It also does not have any modes or features. it is always there to help you or annoy you.
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The majority of the emergency response group did not appear to arrive on site until more than 20 minutes after the crash - as can be seen in the amateur video of the incident.
I think questions need to be asked about why they failed to put out what appeared to be a small engine fire before it spread to the fuselage and at one point in that video we saw two fire trucks firing water right over the top of the fuselage at each other!
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No Engines
Observations from a humble ex-commercial pilot, many crews have landed large jets with minimal or no loss of life after loss of all engines.How would this crew have coped with that situation, instead of having a perfectly serviceable aircraft on a clear day?
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I spoke with a firefighter that actually works a the airport and trains putting out such fires, he says that it is often impossible to completely put down such post-crash fires, you spray first lightly to help with evacuation and later to keep the fire under reasonable control but often because of the amount of stored energy in the wreck it will keep smoldering but hopefully not too violently, evacuation is top priority and the rest is secondary.
Last edited by olasek; 21st Jul 2013 at 08:28.
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fox niner
Well, in that case I do not understand why you say ... : "If you leave the autothrottle off in a 777, it is sort of "more demanding" to manually fly the airplane, because you have to compensate for the autotrim system in a way that you have never done on another a/c type before. It is "an annoying way of flying". It can be done though. But you have to be aware of the little details"
I fly the Airbus A/P and A/T off on most of my approaches and the fact that you do not have to trim is not problem whatsoever, on the contrary. Coming off B737 before joining the airbus fleet, it took me exactly 30 seconds to get used to that!
So if you say that "the 777 autotrim function works in a similar way as on the Airbus. It prevents pitch changes by staying in trim, I then do not understand why it would be "more demanding" or "annoying" to fly the 777 manually without A/T rather then when leaving the A/T thrust on.
Well, in that case I do not understand why you say ... : "If you leave the autothrottle off in a 777, it is sort of "more demanding" to manually fly the airplane, because you have to compensate for the autotrim system in a way that you have never done on another a/c type before. It is "an annoying way of flying". It can be done though. But you have to be aware of the little details"
I fly the Airbus A/P and A/T off on most of my approaches and the fact that you do not have to trim is not problem whatsoever, on the contrary. Coming off B737 before joining the airbus fleet, it took me exactly 30 seconds to get used to that!
So if you say that "the 777 autotrim function works in a similar way as on the Airbus. It prevents pitch changes by staying in trim, I then do not understand why it would be "more demanding" or "annoying" to fly the 777 manually without A/T rather then when leaving the A/T thrust on.