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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:32
  #441 (permalink)  
 
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opinion

Having just retired off long haul 777 ops I second the opinion of possibly crew competency. Forget the race issue ; this is not a prejudiced view but an observation of culture.
Regarding visuals , I stopped encouraging my FOs to do visuals after long days. I had 2 cases where it was muffed it so bad I had to "help".
And these were both men with background but lacking in recency, and then add in fatigue issues . My fault as a commander to put them in that position.
Now throw in a 37 year old CA hired straight out of star fleet academy at 20,spends his apprenticeship before the mast in an autocratic society , a FO not encourage to even pick his crew meal , and then throw in a no aids approach. A lot of if s but a possibility. One more variable. A programmed VNAV blindly followed to the scene of the accident.
Food for thought.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:33
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Still wondering what a slam dunk approach is. If it means to get down asap, to me at least it sounds like asking for trouble, especially with procedure-oriented Asian crews who are not used to deviating from the norm, combined with the lack of ILS/GS etc, and the seeming reliance of these crews on such aids even in clear, bright weather. Not to mention Asiana's CRM policies, which I am not sure has been mentioned.

ATC doesn't acknowledge his first call on 7-mile final. Maybe he felt he had to continue and sort it out, not incurring the loss of face that a go-around might bring. Not as bad as what ended up happening of course.

Fair points about fatigue/lack of familiarity with the region, but possibly all these factors together caused him to lose stability in the approach. At the end though, he wouldn't have been the only guy coming into SFO in recent weeks tired after a red-eye and not 100% familiar with the place.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:34
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Yeah, blame the crew entirely, and crack on as though it never happened. That is an impressive approach to safety management.

If you don't mind, I'd prefer to learn the lessons and try and prevent another occurrence.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:38
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Edit

redacted post due to incorrect info, apologies to all

Last edited by glad rag; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:07.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:38
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Could the lack of vertical guidance provided at the destination have been contributory in this accident?
Most likely
I can't make that much clearer, really
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:44
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Re the hand luggage, pax will always try to take it off with them.
people panic and do not behave rational. Years ago I happened to be in an office when the house (3 floors) caught fire somewhere 'up there' (a flat on the top floor, as it appeared later). Everyone grabbed the papers on the desks (me, too, as that's what was going on around me) and run out. How's that explainable? It's not even like walking out of the plane with 2 hands in your pocket, to a foreign country for many.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:48
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Originally Posted by glad rag
https://soundcloud.com/kgoradio/towe...o-aar214-crash

Action starts just before one minute in-talk of emergency vehicle request and tower responding. More, much more to this accident than is being released....
Any mention of emergency vehicles was AFTER the aircraft crashed. The last thing the pilot said before he crashed was "Cleared to land, Asiana 214". Everything else you here is after they crashed.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:50
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Question from a rank amateur and non-pilot. How are comms from the crew to the tower possible with the aircraft in its end state? What are the chances anything on the flight deck are still lit with the plane in this shape? Is it SOP to have portables for backup? Believe the BA flight also had post-crash comms.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:54
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Comm radio hooked to the battery bus....
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:57
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Steelbranch:

Still wondering what a slam dunk approach is
I asked the question over in the Spectator's Balcony, go read that.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:57
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Notams SFO

On the day of their arrival NOTAMS FOR SFO showed the following=
KSFO /SFO SAN FRANCISCO INTL
RUNWAY
1A1066/13
NAV ILS RWY 28R IM U/S
1A1051/13
RWY 28R ALS U/S
APPROACH PROCEDURE
1A1307/13 VALID: 1307061500 - 1307070300
SAN FRANCISCO VOR/DME SFO FREQ 115.8 MHZ CH105X OUT OF SERVICE
1A1246/13
ILS OR LOC Z RWY 28R, AMDT 11A...
ILS RWY 28R CAT II?III, AMDT 11A...
ILS OR LOC Z RWY 28L, AMDT 23A...
LDA/DME RWY 28R, AMDT 1A...
LDA PRM RWY 28R (SIMULTANEOUS CLOSE PARALLEL), AMDT 1A...
ILS PRM RWY 28L (SIMULTANEOUS CLOSE PARALLEL), AMDT 2...
PROCEDURE NA.
1A1065/13
LDA - LOCALIZER DIRECTIONAL AID RWY 28R GP U/S
1A1064/13
RWY 28R RVRT U/S
1A1062/13
ILS RWY 28R CAT 2/3 NOT AUTH.
1A1056/13
ILS RWY 28L GP U/S
1A1053/13
NAV ILS RWY 28R GP U/S
GP 28 L was U/S is has been for a while far as I know and there were aware of it but what I mentioned on the previous post big problem nowadays is that pilots , specially in the big Asian airlines had no exposure to non precision approaches in their career nor thear recurrent training emhesases much of it. Company policies discourage pilots to practise manual flying and normaly AP is not disengaged bellow 1000 or 500 ft. Those pilots actually never had a chance to learn good manual handling of the airplane not to mention non precision or visuall approach. Looks like long expecting and predicted result of those deficiencies in pilot training created this situation. PF probably got sucked into tunnel vision of the touch down point and without electronic path kept runway in the same place on the windshield......... Sad , it actually happen quite often to young FOs eaven with GP but its corrected by captain. In this case it should be at least 3 of them in the cockpit and at least one should of noticed......something wary wrong with their CRM
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:59
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Korea + no glide slope = disaster

Check out the KIA crash at Guam.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:00
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Originally Posted by mojobreakfast
Question from a rank amateur and non-pilot. How are comms from the crew to the tower possible with the aircraft in its end state? What are the chances anything on the flight deck are still lit with the plane in this shape? Is it SOP to have portables for backup? Believe the BA flight also had post-crash comms.
At least one of the radios will have emergency power from an independent source.

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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:06
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Now throw in a 37 year old CA hired straight out of star fleet academy at 20,spends his apprenticeship before the mast in an autocratic society , a FO not encourage to even pick his crew meal , and then throw in a no aids approach.
Except that these 37 year olds have been hand flying visual approaches to this runway without incident, every day for the last three weeks.


History ? Asiana #214 ? FlightAware
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:08
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Originally Posted by salsa
Any idea as to this versions engines as they were fitted with all three top manufacturers engine types?
Engines
maximum thrust Pratt & Whitney 4077
77,000 lb
Rolls-Royce Trent 877
76,000 lb
General Electric GE90-77B
77,000 lb
Pratt & Whitney 4090
90,000 lb
Rolls-Royce Trent 895
93,400 lb
General Electric 90-94B
93,700 lb
The aircraft had PW4090 engines but why do you care? They were reporting to be operating normally.

HL7742 Asiana Airlines Boeing 777-28E(ER) - cn 29171 / ln 553 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:21
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NOTAM 07/046: San Francisco International Airport (KSFO)
!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX

NOTAM 07/051: San Francisco International Airport (KSFO)
!SFO 07/051 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L LLZ/DME OTS WEF 1307071700
CREATED: 07 Jul 2013 03:08:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX


What runway did they "land" on?


Oh......28L....

Last edited by Kraus; 7th Jul 2013 at 15:41.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:22
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I've never flown into SFO, but just wondering if the PRM's are used on visual approaches and if so there might have been some sort of a distraction from an aircraft on final 28R?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:24
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Interesting overhead shot of the accident scene from the bbc, clearly shows the debris fields and both engine impact points and that the right engine is the one furthest away( if you follow the score marks on the runway,- so that means its the left engine sitting outside door 2R.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:26
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Slam dunk approach is one where aeroplane is being kept high on approach by either ATC or altitude constrain, after which you start the decent with higher than normal rate to catch up on your profile.

It is sometimes difficult for heavy jet doing this maneuver due to momentum, it takes time to reach the required decent rate and anticipation to arrest the rate back to normal.

Normal procedure for 777 is to have A/T engaged through out approach, it automatically retards at around 25 feet. For a normal approach it reduces pilot workload, for an undeshot approach it could retard where additional thrust is actually required. But again the movement of which can always be overridden by pilot.

Quite surprised to see on this reletively professional forum filled with racism comments even before any investigation been carried out. No such comments were made when European and American carriers had catastrophic accident due to reason not for me to comment. The only facts here are the pilots are male, Korean and flying experience, nothing regarding to culture.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 15:30
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I can see that in some cases, it might be reasonable to carry items off the plane with you. (If overhead bins have opened and deposited items in your lap or the aisle, taking them with you as you exit may be the fastest way to get them out of the way - even if they are not your bags.) I can even understand the instinct to take a bag that's with you under the seat. However - photos seem to suggest at least a few coming off this plane lugging all their luggage.
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