Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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Can you descend with FLCH without selecting a lower level on your ALT select window? (Sorry, not familiar with Boeing acronyms)
Would you use FLCH for any approaches? BIG NO
If so, what is the minimum selected altitude? MDA?
And selecting the MDA in FLCH doesn't really make sense.
and finally, if and when, reaching the MDA, doesn't the Auto Throttle "awake"
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Epc
The senior, the training captain, will not feel any inhibition in speaking up when or if he observes the junior, the trainee and the PF, doing something stupid.
Being an instructor does not automatically put him above the trainee. If, for instance, both of them have a military background, and the trainee held a higher rank back then, it could affect the dynamics in this cockpit.
RE escape slide inflation
One inflated in flight in the tail of an MD-81 being used by Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign. In the tail cone rather than the cabin, but intefrered with pitch control cables.
Obama campaign plane's emergency is detailed - Los Angeles Times
As to the qualifications of the NTSB chief - well, it IS called the National Transportation Safety Board, not the National Aviation Safety Board.
It investigates accidents and safety issues in all branches of transportation - rail, bus, truck, car, boat. With briefs for pipelines and hazardous material transport as well.
Accident Investigations - NTSB - National Transportation Safety Board
One inflated in flight in the tail of an MD-81 being used by Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign. In the tail cone rather than the cabin, but intefrered with pitch control cables.
Obama campaign plane's emergency is detailed - Los Angeles Times
As to the qualifications of the NTSB chief - well, it IS called the National Transportation Safety Board, not the National Aviation Safety Board.
It investigates accidents and safety issues in all branches of transportation - rail, bus, truck, car, boat. With briefs for pipelines and hazardous material transport as well.
Accident Investigations - NTSB - National Transportation Safety Board
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 8th Jul 2013 at 18:57.
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Well by possible I mean it is within the realms of possibility, not that it is very likely. I am sure they have tested for this kind of thing. I've read of a couple but usually that was the result of crew opening an armed door into a jetway or catering truck and the slide deflecting back into the cabin.
Not sure how practical this is.
NTSB: Briefing Prelim Data
82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
Almost 1000 posts (not counted many deleted) and I have waited to add my own.
No use in even commenting in the first days since we are overrun with newbies (less than 500 posts) expressing subjective opinions.
I find it absolutely worthless to assign any kind of blame including personal characteristics, nationalities, affiliations, or airline culture before the NTSB has released any facts to support.
If we think this is pilot error than let's stick to training standards and CRM.
I'm not much interested in finding fault with things (like the airport, MELs etc.) when they are perfectly legal (pilot know thy machine !)
Of course I'm still open to hidden system failure should they turn up. But for heavens sake stop these posts with assignment of blame before the investigation is finished.
No use in even commenting in the first days since we are overrun with newbies (less than 500 posts) expressing subjective opinions.
I find it absolutely worthless to assign any kind of blame including personal characteristics, nationalities, affiliations, or airline culture before the NTSB has released any facts to support.
If we think this is pilot error than let's stick to training standards and CRM.
I'm not much interested in finding fault with things (like the airport, MELs etc.) when they are perfectly legal (pilot know thy machine !)
Of course I'm still open to hidden system failure should they turn up. But for heavens sake stop these posts with assignment of blame before the investigation is finished.
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82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
A/T had to be off, they were idle the whole time till 8 seconds when the NTSB says the throttles were advanced. She said the autopilot was disconnected at 1700 ft over 80 seconds prior to landing but doesn't reference the A/T, but aircraft behavior indicates A/T was not on, clearly that would be a data point in the FDR and referenced.
Ross, I suppose that could be a consideration however on newer aircraft not all slide packs are stowed inside the cabin. On the 777-300 The LR3 slides are in the wing/body fairing and thus could not deploy into the cabin. However, then you have the potential for there to be damage to that area rendering the slide ramp U/S.
The same goes for the MLR3 and the upper deck slides on the A380. The MLR3 are in the wing/body fairing and the upper deck slides deploy from hatches below the doors. I guess they have the room for this in the A380, but to do it on all doors of a single deck widebody probably would present its own space issues (eg cargo hold in the way etc)
Apologies for the slight drift, maybe we can take this to Tech....
The same goes for the MLR3 and the upper deck slides on the A380. The MLR3 are in the wing/body fairing and the upper deck slides deploy from hatches below the doors. I guess they have the room for this in the A380, but to do it on all doors of a single deck widebody probably would present its own space issues (eg cargo hold in the way etc)
Apologies for the slight drift, maybe we can take this to Tech....
And in which position were the Auto-Throttle switches? And was the A/T on?
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Jus to add to the data related by Garage years - she stated that engine thrust was @50% @3 seconds out (at 103kts)
NTSB: Briefing Prelim Data
82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
NTSB: Briefing Prelim Data
82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
My "real" airline flying experience amounts to two hours' circuit training in a 737-800 Level D simulator shared with a colleague. Whilst he was flying he momentarily took his eye off the ball whilst turning final and the speed gradually decayed to around 135 kts (VREF 141kts). I was scanning the speed and announced "watch your speed!" - power applied; end of story.
Now if two duffers with zero experience can manage it (in the middle of the night) why can't an experienced crew with three or four captains on board!
We can sit and pontificate about airline procedures, no ILS, PAPI switched off etc etc for another 50 pages but the fact is this aircraft should not have been stacked on a beautiful clear day with little wind!
Now if two duffers with zero experience can manage it (in the middle of the night) why can't an experienced crew with three or four captains on board!
We can sit and pontificate about airline procedures, no ILS, PAPI switched off etc etc for another 50 pages but the fact is this aircraft should not have been stacked on a beautiful clear day with little wind!
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Now if two duffers with zero experience can manage it (in the middle of the night) why can't an experienced crew with three or four captains on board!
If you and your duffer mate had run, say, 5000 sim sessions can you confidently say never would that mistake have gone undetected?
Or, if 5000 similar to you people had been put on a sim would none have committed this blunder.
One point, often unappreciated, is that when you put in as many repeat events as in commercial aviation, even relative low probability "stupid" errors are almost a certainty. Given enough time.
details
Originally Posted by GarageYears
This was not stated, except that thrust was demanded at 7 secs before impact and the engines were at 50% at impact.
To add a tiny bit of my armchair analysis--it appears that considerable nose up elevator was applied roughly simultaneous with the throttle push--as the speed decays much more rapidly than previously before beginning to increase. Also the tail cone and other parts being left behind on the sea wall and the video suggest very substantial nose up attitude at the moment of impact.
[edit: I see that the 50% point matter was posted while I was typing]
Last edited by archae86; 8th Jul 2013 at 19:20. Reason: acknowledge previous post
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There ya go (if its true).
"Asiana Airlines told the media that Lee Kang-Kook, the pilot in charge of landing the plane, had flown 9,700 hours in an Airbus A320"
PHOTOS: NTSB releases harrowing images from inside the crashed Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 ~ The Aviation Writer
That's "if" it's true.
And they're all having a ganders out of the window...as the speed bleeds off.
"Asiana Airlines told the media that Lee Kang-Kook, the pilot in charge of landing the plane, had flown 9,700 hours in an Airbus A320"
PHOTOS: NTSB releases harrowing images from inside the crashed Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 ~ The Aviation Writer
That's "if" it's true.
And they're all having a ganders out of the window...as the speed bleeds off.
well done fellas, you'll never be let near the front of an airplane again.
More than a whopping 35s apparantly not a single one of 4 ATPL rated pilots in the front office noticing they were to slow !?
CVR might be more enlightening than FDR.
Last edited by henra; 8th Jul 2013 at 19:46.
Ross M - I respectfully disagree. The point I was making was that even with virtually no flying experience I was still scanning the speed. Rest assured if I had 290 people behind me I would be glued to that ASI! That is because the basic scan (especially speed) is fundamental to any sort of flying.
What these "pilots" were doing was akin to driving down the Motorway at 100mph with your eyes closeed. It is absolutely unfathomable how they managed to get themselves into this position. For at least 30 seconds before the crash they were below VREF. This isn't CFIT at night, landing short in fog or even touching down halfway along the runway and going off the end. I don't think I have ever seen an accident which should have been more avoidable. Words fail me!
What these "pilots" were doing was akin to driving down the Motorway at 100mph with your eyes closeed. It is absolutely unfathomable how they managed to get themselves into this position. For at least 30 seconds before the crash they were below VREF. This isn't CFIT at night, landing short in fog or even touching down halfway along the runway and going off the end. I don't think I have ever seen an accident which should have been more avoidable. Words fail me!
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Interesting to mention that flight Asiana 214 on July 5, so the day before the crashed one, make a go around at SFO. Same flightnumber, same aircraft. The reason is unknown to me.
See a picture of the flightpath registered by flightaware
http://s22.postimg.org/4negv3zyp/AAR214_July5_GA.gif
See a picture of the flightpath registered by flightaware
http://s22.postimg.org/4negv3zyp/AAR214_July5_GA.gif
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It's so easy to throw blame around. I'm sure the pilots pooched this one. But one has to have a little sympathy. If I screw up, people don't die. We forget what a huge responsibility transport pilots have..
The woman who pooched it on FedEx 647 died this year of a stroke. Only 54. Here's her obituary. That smiling face may not have been that of a stick-and-rudder natural, but she was probably a really decent person.
Obituary Notices : The Suburban Times
Maybe the hiring process needs to be more rigorous.
The woman who pooched it on FedEx 647 died this year of a stroke. Only 54. Here's her obituary. That smiling face may not have been that of a stick-and-rudder natural, but she was probably a really decent person.
Obituary Notices : The Suburban Times
Maybe the hiring process needs to be more rigorous.