Spirit A319, skydiving plane in close call over Michigan
Join Date: May 2011
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I am NYC-based and my biggest fear isn't a fat Canadian Goose, it's a Bell helo or a Cessna/Piper/Cirrus. The tower/dep/arr controllers at LGA/JFK clear these aircraft through our airspace like they are non-existant. I've shot my arm out a few times in past couple years in the right seat yelling, "Traffic!" The news helicopters and GA traffic out of HPN and TEB have seemingly have free reign over the safety of our commercial aircraft. LAX had a couple well-known instances of mid-airs in the 80s. I'm afraid we might be on the same track in NYC.
The tower/dep/arr controllers at LGA/JFK clear these aircraft through our airspace like they are non-existant.
You know, maybe you're worried about the wrong thing entirely.
Join Date: May 2011
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I have 130+ passengers behind me. They expect me to get them to California, Florida, Utah, Washington, or Georgia safely.
The dope in the Bell or Cessna is either reporting on traffic, bringing folks to the Hamptons, or is giving them a nice view of the skyline.
Personally, I think I have priority.
This isn't Daytona Beach or Grand Forks.
The dope in the Bell or Cessna is either reporting on traffic, bringing folks to the Hamptons, or is giving them a nice view of the skyline.
Personally, I think I have priority.
This isn't Daytona Beach or Grand Forks.
I've heard this kind of nonsense before so I'm not shocked. Let someone fly a jet and they start thinking they're somebody important. Oh and the "people behind me" line doesn't give your opinion any more weight. The fact is, ALL of aviation is entitled to use the airspace and you'll have to learn to live with it. Your energy might be better spent working on your SA and learning to be calmer. The airspace and everyone using it isn't going to change just to accommodate you or your employer. Best to learn to adapt to the flying environment as you find it rather than expecting it to adapt to you!
Keep a good traffic watch, keep improving your ability to form a 4D mental "picture" of what's going on around you and do the best job you can. You'll either make it or you won't.
BTW, it seems to me most of the IFR traffic separation losses occur between airline traffic these days, so watch out for airliners!
Cerritos and San Diego are ancient history. The FAA expanded the limits of the SAN and LAX TCAs long before the airspace reclassification made them Bravo. Airline pilot unions whined about being unable to level off at at 2,000 feet at LAX so the shoreline route was closed to VFR traffic. That made some airline types happy but it shouldn't because it just forces more VFR traffic into less space, increasing the traffic crossing right over the airport. Now they route IFR jet traffic along the shoreline at 4,000' so watch that climb rate or expect a TCAS wakeup call. Pretty much like NYC.
I've flown VFR and IFR in spam cans and in bizjets in both places so I know it can be stressful if you let it be. Don't. Just be a pilot and let the politicians and management hacks be what they are. Worrying steals your piloting ability.
Keep a good traffic watch, keep improving your ability to form a 4D mental "picture" of what's going on around you and do the best job you can. You'll either make it or you won't.
BTW, it seems to me most of the IFR traffic separation losses occur between airline traffic these days, so watch out for airliners! Cerritos and San Diego are ancient history. The FAA expanded the limits of the SAN and LAX TCAs long before the airspace reclassification made them Bravo. Airline pilot unions whined about being unable to level off at at 2,000 feet at LAX so the shoreline route was closed to VFR traffic. That made some airline types happy but it shouldn't because it just forces more VFR traffic into less space, increasing the traffic crossing right over the airport. Now they route IFR jet traffic along the shoreline at 4,000' so watch that climb rate or expect a TCAS wakeup call. Pretty much like NYC.
I've flown VFR and IFR in spam cans and in bizjets in both places so I know it can be stressful if you let it be. Don't. Just be a pilot and let the politicians and management hacks be what they are. Worrying steals your piloting ability.
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Since most passengers and crew on commercial airliners are there for commercial and/or economic reasons, shouldn't recreational users of airspace ( light aircraft, sailplanes,Para divers, etc.) just keep well out of their way? Like, keep away from traffic routes? Or is this too simplistic?
Last edited by sharksandwich; 13th Jul 2013 at 03:37.
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Or is this too simplistic?
Well Sharky, you'll be the one deciding who has priority use of US airspace then? 
Who should I make the check out to in order to receive my special dispensation?
I guess that since in your world those flying for business reasons get priority, we'll now be required to inquire as to the purpose of each passenger's travel so that their flight can be assigned a priority index. That's fine, the business owner flying his Cirrus to a business meeting gets priority over the jumbo full of vacationers headed to Honolulu. "United 123, cancel takeoff clearance, hold your position, the Cirrus pilot has a meeting to get to. Break, Cirrus 321 cleared for immediate takeoff"
That ought to be good news for Bizav!
Might be worth thinking this through...
I'm glad our country's move towards socialism hasn't progressed quite THAT far... Yet!
Anyway, you can probably tell I'm not in favor of the government deciding whose use of the airspace is more "important" or "legitimate". Lifeguard and certain other special flights are of course given priority as required. Other than that, for the time being anyway, it's generally first come, first served. For the most part anyway. ATC has to operate on a "triage" basis to some extent so private flights sometimes need to be pretty flexible when it comes to using major airports and the costs are often enough to dissuade anyway.
As far as using the NAS goes, everyone is equal in the eyes of ATC and is treated according to their needs and to available capacity. Considering the challenges, the "system" works pretty well for the most part. Weather, peak traffic periods created by airline hub and spoke schedule considerations and other factors sometimes conspire to to create delays and inconveniences. Occasionally something transpires which leads to a loss of traffic separation or worse. People get all wound up about these statistical outliers and start making ridiculous assertions and equally ridiculous proposals to "fix" the problem.
I guess this same idea should be applied to road traffic too?
Good luck with that!
Who should I make the check out to in order to receive my special dispensation?
I guess that since in your world those flying for business reasons get priority, we'll now be required to inquire as to the purpose of each passenger's travel so that their flight can be assigned a priority index. That's fine, the business owner flying his Cirrus to a business meeting gets priority over the jumbo full of vacationers headed to Honolulu. "United 123, cancel takeoff clearance, hold your position, the Cirrus pilot has a meeting to get to. Break, Cirrus 321 cleared for immediate takeoff"
That ought to be good news for Bizav!
Might be worth thinking this through...
I'm glad our country's move towards socialism hasn't progressed quite THAT far... Yet!
Anyway, you can probably tell I'm not in favor of the government deciding whose use of the airspace is more "important" or "legitimate". Lifeguard and certain other special flights are of course given priority as required. Other than that, for the time being anyway, it's generally first come, first served. For the most part anyway. ATC has to operate on a "triage" basis to some extent so private flights sometimes need to be pretty flexible when it comes to using major airports and the costs are often enough to dissuade anyway.
As far as using the NAS goes, everyone is equal in the eyes of ATC and is treated according to their needs and to available capacity. Considering the challenges, the "system" works pretty well for the most part. Weather, peak traffic periods created by airline hub and spoke schedule considerations and other factors sometimes conspire to to create delays and inconveniences. Occasionally something transpires which leads to a loss of traffic separation or worse. People get all wound up about these statistical outliers and start making ridiculous assertions and equally ridiculous proposals to "fix" the problem.
I guess this same idea should be applied to road traffic too?
Good luck with that!
Rotate on this!
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Being a Spirit pilot myself, reading these replies makes me cringe, do you guys even fly airplanes professionally?
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Since most passengers and crew on commercial airliners are there for commercial and/or economic reasons, shouldn't recreational users of airspace ( light aircraft, sailplanes,Para divers, etc.) just keep well out of their way? Like, keep away from traffic routes? Or is this too simplistic?
YES! In the USA at least we ALL have rights to the roads, air, and water. Do private cars stay off the roads to allow trucks and busses better access? Are private boats banned from New York so the ferries can run with less trouble? Do you think private cars should stay off of I-95 when truckers need to get someplace.
If I am flying an Aztec full of freight should I get to cut off an Aztec full of people going on vacation? I can't ever recall New York approach telling me something like "fly around in circles over JFK and LGA because we don't care who you hit" . If you aren't LANDING at some airport in the Class B or have an IFR flight plan they are not exactly open for random tourism unless a LOT has changed recently.
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Airliners tend to have more people in them than the
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"....
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"....
Last edited by overstress; 17th Jul 2013 at 22:28.
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All pilots have the same priority in their airspace. Airliners don't have any priority over GA pilots flying smaller aircraft. Trucks don't have priority over private cars either on the highway. Being bigger only works in high school until the kid you beat up is your boss because he was smarter. and studied.
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>>
Airliners tend to have more people in them than the
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"....
>>
I don't care if the Cirrus pilot is flying around spying on nude sunbathers. Unless some airline has somehow bought the public airspace of the USA while I was sleeping they can get in line with everyone else or go find another country to fly in.
Airliners tend to have more people in them than the
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"....
>>
I don't care if the Cirrus pilot is flying around spying on nude sunbathers. Unless some airline has somehow bought the public airspace of the USA while I was sleeping they can get in line with everyone else or go find another country to fly in.
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Quote:
"Airliners tend to have more people in them than the
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"...."
Biz jets and Cirrus contain the innovators that create most of the jobs filled by the passengers in the airliners.
Everyone gets to use the airspace, class B included.
"Airliners tend to have more people in them than the
chap in his Cirrus justifying the expense by flying himself to a "business meeting"...."
Biz jets and Cirrus contain the innovators that create most of the jobs filled by the passengers in the airliners.
Everyone gets to use the airspace, class B included.
Last edited by jetdriverbr; 18th Jul 2013 at 04:49.
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In the maritime world, "Steam gives way to sail"
Next time you're out in your 20 foot yacht, try telling that to the Master of the 20,000 -ton tanker , bearing down on you and needing 5 miles to stop, 2 to change course by a few degrees.
Same situation......An airliner isn't the same as a Pitts in the manouverability-stakes. It appears "common-sense" isn't very common.
Next time you're out in your 20 foot yacht, try telling that to the Master of the 20,000 -ton tanker , bearing down on you and needing 5 miles to stop, 2 to change course by a few degrees.
Same situation......An airliner isn't the same as a Pitts in the manouverability-stakes. It appears "common-sense" isn't very common.
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Steam DOES give way to sail. I sail offshore quite a bit and work out crossings with commercial shipping all the time. The skippers mostly know and obey the COLREGS. Inland where a ship may be confined to a narrow channel there is a special rule to give the deep-draft ship right-of-way because they can't really turn even if they wanted to.
As for Pitts vs. Airliners -
How often do biplanes get around to the right side of a jet and try and make them change course? Are there uncontrolled fields where airliners on final get tormented by a Pitts turning inside them and claiming right-of-way for being lower?
I have been flying since the 1980s and can't recall anyone EVER doing anything like this.
As for Pitts vs. Airliners -
How often do biplanes get around to the right side of a jet and try and make them change course? Are there uncontrolled fields where airliners on final get tormented by a Pitts turning inside them and claiming right-of-way for being lower?
I have been flying since the 1980s and can't recall anyone EVER doing anything like this.
Last edited by island_airphoto; 18th Jul 2013 at 12:30.
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See and avoid works quite well in the US. Needing a computer to see who has the highest gross takeoff weight for right of way would be quite complex. Most engines would be difficult too. I flew a corporate 4 engine jet for a while so would a 757 give way to me or not?
Let's leave things just the way they are and don't run into anybody.
Let's leave things just the way they are and don't run into anybody.
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For first encounters with 'TCAS RA manoeuvring' here is some practice that I use during training . . .
I use a, relatively unstable, carton cup of water, placed in a bowl on the floor, while training the various, different 'response-actions to a TCAS RA' . . .
I mention nothing at all, initially, and the cup usually falls and empties in the bowl.
Then,
I stress to: "just try to imagine", that our pax should not be aware of any of our 'TCAS RA response-manoeuvring' . . .
Now, after having drawn attention to the 'pax-thinking-thing' (just as an aid . . .) and having 'disclosed' the 'cup in the bowl', the bowl NEVER gets wet anymore.
"Clear of conflict . . . !"
So far, this has really worked out very positive . . .
Kind regards, learner . . .
I use a, relatively unstable, carton cup of water, placed in a bowl on the floor, while training the various, different 'response-actions to a TCAS RA' . . .
I mention nothing at all, initially, and the cup usually falls and empties in the bowl.
Then,
I stress to: "just try to imagine", that our pax should not be aware of any of our 'TCAS RA response-manoeuvring' . . .
Now, after having drawn attention to the 'pax-thinking-thing' (just as an aid . . .) and having 'disclosed' the 'cup in the bowl', the bowl NEVER gets wet anymore.
"Clear of conflict . . . !"
So far, this has really worked out very positive . . .
Kind regards, learner . . .
A minute later, the Spirit jet received an automated TCAS warning that required him to begin an immediate 1,600-foot descent to 12,800 feet from a previous altitude of 14,400 feet."
I'm not sure why you'd want to dive under a skydiving plane at that altitude. Jump planes typically want to dump their load at 12,500 feet above ground level so the jumpers get around 60 seconds of free fall before deploying their chute.
Hence 12,800 feet may be close to their high altitude. At 14,400 feet or more, you should wear an oxygen mask in most jump planes, which is a bother.
Diving under them that high means you may miss the jump plane, but you could have parachutes sucked into your engines.
Last edited by visibility3miles; 20th Jul 2013 at 00:19.
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TCAS gives you a message : " monitor vertical speed!", "climb!, climb!" or "descend!descend!". The crew will do IAW TCAS's message. They probably had a "descend! descend!" message.