MSR985 escorted into PIK
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Agaricus Bisporus
Interesting nav system you have on your aircraft if you think it overflew Stansted on its route (Great Circle in blue, actual route in green). Don't work for Ryanair do you ?
from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route
Interesting nav system you have on your aircraft if you think it overflew Stansted on its route (Great Circle in blue, actual route in green). Don't work for Ryanair do you ?
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Not quite sure what you are saying, 10W, but if it overflew Prague'ish then I would agree a route near STN to MAN and out through Ireland might seem a better NAT track than wiggling around via PWK - otherwise that is a pretty northerly track for JFK? The only things I can see preferring PWK would be time to make the decision and capacity at STN.
It does seem odd. I would also have voted for an RTB and sling them in an Egyptian jail.
It does seem odd. I would also have voted for an RTB and sling them in an Egyptian jail.
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Hi BOAC
Hope you are well
Then you'd be hours behind everyone else due to the head winds which were sitting mid Atlantic, and you'd be on a random route and not a track 
The Westbound tracks have been pretty Northerly for the last week or so, and the MSR was one of many many aircraft from the Eastern Med/Middle East coming up that way for Eastern seaboard destinations. Mid West and Western seaboard aircraft were even further North. It's not common, but it's certainly nothing new.
And without going in to too much detail, most of which is not public domain, PIK was about 45 minutes flying time closer to the aircraft than Stansted when the alert was triggered with ATC. Any ATC.
Bearing in mind that the BBC journo who reported the event thought they had landed in Ireland,
, I wouldn't trust them to find their own a*se even if they had a GPS and large flag pinned there saying 'This is your a*se'. So were they over the Czech Republic when it was found ? Who knows !!
I guess what I am saying in a round about way is that people who often throw in conjecture or comment, don't actually have the full facts and can jump to totally wrong conclusions. Like the aircraft having flown over Stansted
Hope you are well
I would agree a route near STN to MAN and out through Ireland might seem a better NAT track than wiggling around via PWK -
otherwise that is a pretty northerly track for JFK?
The only things I can see preferring PWK would be time to make the decision and capacity at STN.
Bearing in mind that the BBC journo who reported the event thought they had landed in Ireland,
, I wouldn't trust them to find their own a*se even if they had a GPS and large flag pinned there saying 'This is your a*se'. So were they over the Czech Republic when it was found ? Who knows !!I guess what I am saying in a round about way is that people who often throw in conjecture or comment, don't actually have the full facts and can jump to totally wrong conclusions. Like the aircraft having flown over Stansted
If I ever find such a note, I think I'll quietly pop it in the bin.
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10W, while we must clearly all bow to your superior knowledge I'd suggest that the route you've drawn is hardly one that would be chosen intuitively and as Stansted is clearly much much closer to the direct track I can't see your point.
Thank you for your advice on my nav system, although it seems to have been perfectly well tuned in this case.
It seems rather sad that you have to flaunt your specific knowledge of an aircrafts route to belittle those mere mortals who aren't so privileged and merely use their gumption in a discussion.
have a nice day.
Thank you for your advice on my nav system, although it seems to have been perfectly well tuned in this case.
It seems rather sad that you have to flaunt your specific knowledge of an aircrafts route to belittle those mere mortals who aren't so privileged and merely use their gumption in a discussion.
have a nice day.
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Agaricus
Just trying to point out that your assertion that 'no one seemed unduly concerned on board if they blithely flew 2 hrs from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route' wasn't what actually happened. You were jumping to an incorrect conclusion which I am trying to correct, as far as I can, bearing in mind the sensitivity in much of what occurred and is not in the public domain.
The map is the actual aircraft track taken from a freely available public flight tracking application. Anyone wanting to make points on this thread could access it and use that when making their arguments. It should also dispel any myths and incorrect theories being posted.
It's clear you have a bee in your bonnet about the decisions taken by the UK Security services. That's your right. All I would say is that your angst is misplaced. You know nothing of what actually occurred out of the public eye, of the information passed between various agencies, of the threat assessments carried out, and why the final decisions were made by those with the authority to do so. Whether you think they over reacted or not is a moot point. At the end of the day, it wasn't your butt on the line and you weren't the one having to make the judgement calls based on the information which had been received. Nor were you in a position to have very public egg on your face if you got it wrong.
When you are personally flying as Captain, you can chose not to advise anyone on the ground if you receive a threat message if you wish. That's your call and you will, I am sure, be able to live with that decision and answer any critics if things go wrong. That's what comes with the responsibility of command.
Safe flying to you.
Just trying to point out that your assertion that 'no one seemed unduly concerned on board if they blithely flew 2 hrs from Czechoslovakia to Scotland and passing over Stansted en route' wasn't what actually happened. You were jumping to an incorrect conclusion which I am trying to correct, as far as I can, bearing in mind the sensitivity in much of what occurred and is not in the public domain.
The map is the actual aircraft track taken from a freely available public flight tracking application. Anyone wanting to make points on this thread could access it and use that when making their arguments. It should also dispel any myths and incorrect theories being posted.
It's clear you have a bee in your bonnet about the decisions taken by the UK Security services. That's your right. All I would say is that your angst is misplaced. You know nothing of what actually occurred out of the public eye, of the information passed between various agencies, of the threat assessments carried out, and why the final decisions were made by those with the authority to do so. Whether you think they over reacted or not is a moot point. At the end of the day, it wasn't your butt on the line and you weren't the one having to make the judgement calls based on the information which had been received. Nor were you in a position to have very public egg on your face if you got it wrong.
When you are personally flying as Captain, you can chose not to advise anyone on the ground if you receive a threat message if you wish. That's your call and you will, I am sure, be able to live with that decision and answer any critics if things go wrong. That's what comes with the responsibility of command.
Safe flying to you.
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10W, thank you so much for your valued advice.
I'm so, so contrite that I didn't access a "freely available" thing that you know all about but I don't, silly me for mot being as smart as you, and as I explained it was also inexcusably silly of me to imagine that they would have flown a direct track and not half way to russia en route, bit then most of us know that when no facts are known what is written must necessarily be based on speculation. As I said, that speculation was spot-on accurate for a logical track, but if it offends you I frankly dont give a toss.
Please don't presume, from your position of such superiority, to deduce my attitude to the "security services" of which you know nothing whatsoever, I think it is you that has the bee in the bonnet tonight actually.
I find your very personal attack unseemly and unpleasant, I've said nothing here that speculates more or less than anyone else, yourself excluded of course. I think we've all got the message that you're in a privileged position with far more knowledge than anyone else on this matter and I'm sure we're all suitably impressed.
let it go, will you Its getting boring.
I'm so, so contrite that I didn't access a "freely available" thing that you know all about but I don't, silly me for mot being as smart as you, and as I explained it was also inexcusably silly of me to imagine that they would have flown a direct track and not half way to russia en route, bit then most of us know that when no facts are known what is written must necessarily be based on speculation. As I said, that speculation was spot-on accurate for a logical track, but if it offends you I frankly dont give a toss.
Please don't presume, from your position of such superiority, to deduce my attitude to the "security services" of which you know nothing whatsoever, I think it is you that has the bee in the bonnet tonight actually.
I find your very personal attack unseemly and unpleasant, I've said nothing here that speculates more or less than anyone else, yourself excluded of course. I think we've all got the message that you're in a privileged position with far more knowledge than anyone else on this matter and I'm sure we're all suitably impressed.
let it go, will you Its getting boring.
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Whatever happened to free speech and a bit of idle banter
The "facts" surrounding this whole episode are odd. The track is odd, the response is odd, the Typhoon intro is odd, and PIK as a destination is odd.
It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?
It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?
And of the reaction of some on this forum, it would appear that, the suits, say no
Very disappointing.
The "facts" surrounding this whole episode are odd. The track is odd, the response is odd, the Typhoon intro is odd, and PIK as a destination is odd.
It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?
It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?
And of the reaction of some on this forum, it would appear that, the suits, say no
Very disappointing.
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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AB
You are an airframe driver according to your profile. Weather patterns, great circle routes, and airspace constraints and restrictions should be part and parcel of your flying life. With that knowledge you have, you will probably know more than most how actual flight paths over the ground might not go where an ordinary person might think they do. You can use that knowledge to give an educated guess of what the likely scenarios may have been and offer up credible arguments. Feel free.
But enough pig wrestling on both our parts. There should be at least a little more information out there for people to base their debates on.
You are an airframe driver according to your profile. Weather patterns, great circle routes, and airspace constraints and restrictions should be part and parcel of your flying life. With that knowledge you have, you will probably know more than most how actual flight paths over the ground might not go where an ordinary person might think they do. You can use that knowledge to give an educated guess of what the likely scenarios may have been and offer up credible arguments. Feel free.
But enough pig wrestling on both our parts. There should be at least a little more information out there for people to base their debates on.
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The "facts" surrounding this whole episode are odd. The track is odd, the response is odd, the Typhoon intro is odd, and PIK as a destination is odd.
It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?
It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?
It would be nothing to do with a bit of publicity, a co- incidence that a warlord event is happening in NI, would it?
It just happens to be a Syrian family, allegedly requesting PS, in a lets keep them all frightened and on alert, atmosphere? bit of a political agenda no?
Oh... and just before you don your tin foil hat maxred, don't forget.....
The note was discovered by a BBC Journalist.
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Well said 10W, I found your explanation perfectly reasonable being accurate, informative and in no way was it a 'personal attack' or presented in 'a superior manner'! Have flown the Atlantic many times and even when taking off from either Amsterdam or Frankfurt have found myself up over Scotland more than once, due jet streams.
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Last edited by jolihokistix; 18th Jun 2013 at 02:12.
What the chart does show is that not only was overhead Czech Republic a long way from when they decided to divert, but they appear to have been closer to Bergen, Norway's 3,000 m runway when the diversion to Prestwick started, taking in a scenic tour of Scotland on the way.
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There is no evidence that the message was found over the Czech Republic. This information came from the BBC journalist, who coincidentally broke the story. This information has also disappeared from the BBC website. Maybe it was wrong in the first place ?
Don't be fooled that the aircraft started its diversion where the map shows a slight left turn over the North Sea. This is a turn at a waypoint on the flight plan route, as was expected since the flight was operating normally at that time. This was also well before the problem was notified. Indeed, the aircraft continues on flight plan route all the way until overhead Scotland when the turn South is observed. This is the point at which the decision has been made to divert to Prestwick. It would be reasonable to assume that the time between the security situation being declared and the diversion to Prestwick, with Typhoons in tow, would not have been a very lengthy process.
Don't be fooled that the aircraft started its diversion where the map shows a slight left turn over the North Sea. This is a turn at a waypoint on the flight plan route, as was expected since the flight was operating normally at that time. This was also well before the problem was notified. Indeed, the aircraft continues on flight plan route all the way until overhead Scotland when the turn South is observed. This is the point at which the decision has been made to divert to Prestwick. It would be reasonable to assume that the time between the security situation being declared and the diversion to Prestwick, with Typhoons in tow, would not have been a very lengthy process.