Incident at Heathrow
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In the case of Manchester I'd be poking my nose at Hawarden which is 2,043 metres long and once again available without flying over built up area's.
Have you tried looking up from the newspaper and out of the window?
In the case of New York Sully managed to park in the river Hudson knowing full well if he failed to pull it off only the crew and passengers would die. I'm sure he had that option in mind for many years of operating out of NY.
In my opinion a multitude of current captains cannot think outside of the loop.
We now have a lot of 'systems managers' who fail when it goes wrong as the Air France disaster proved.
The BA crew could have flown a straight line out of Heathrow and been on the deck at Brize quicker that flying around London and caused a lot less hassle.
They knew just after rotation the cowls had departed. Why fly around the M25?
Have you tried looking up from the newspaper and out of the window?
In the case of New York Sully managed to park in the river Hudson knowing full well if he failed to pull it off only the crew and passengers would die. I'm sure he had that option in mind for many years of operating out of NY.
In my opinion a multitude of current captains cannot think outside of the loop.
We now have a lot of 'systems managers' who fail when it goes wrong as the Air France disaster proved.
The BA crew could have flown a straight line out of Heathrow and been on the deck at Brize quicker that flying around London and caused a lot less hassle.
They knew just after rotation the cowls had departed. Why fly around the M25?
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 21:39.
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Not 20/20 hindsight but foresight.
As I've said for a departing aircraft from Heathrow with a major problem Brize has to be a logical alternate. It has all the safety infrastructure in place and presents no risk if the aircraft has to crash over open countryside.
Given the reliability of modern aircraft I wonder if any crew ever play the game of where would we go if it all goes wrong?
In this case too casual to do a proper preflight.
How hard is it to kneel down on one knee and count all seven latches?
As I've said for a departing aircraft from Heathrow with a major problem Brize has to be a logical alternate. It has all the safety infrastructure in place and presents no risk if the aircraft has to crash over open countryside.
Given the reliability of modern aircraft I wonder if any crew ever play the game of where would we go if it all goes wrong?
In this case too casual to do a proper preflight.
How hard is it to kneel down on one knee and count all seven latches?
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 21:42.
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The Solution
Eureka!
Just realised how to prevent cowl doors from being left unlocked and falling off aircraft in flight.
Take the bleddy things off! If they ain't there, they can't fall off!
Just realised how to prevent cowl doors from being left unlocked and falling off aircraft in flight.
Take the bleddy things off! If they ain't there, they can't fall off!
the fan cowl doors from both engines detached, puncturing a fuel pipe on the right engine and damaging the airframe, and some aircraft systems. The flight crew elected to return to Heathrow. On the approach to land an external fire developed on the right engine. The left engine continued to perform normally throughout the flight. The right engine was shut down and the aircraft landed safely and was brought to a stop on Runway 27R
Do you think it best to div to STN rather than single engine return to LL (and if so is that warranted in all engine failures) or is it the 'damage to the airframe, and some aircraft systems' that you think warranted a div to STN?
[genuine question]
A twin jet that I got to fly some time ago has an avionics door that was right in front of the RH engine intake.
That door, if left just unlatched would hang flat. The fact that it was unlocked was then prone to being missed on a walk around.
It was in fact missed on one or two occasions and engine replacements followed.
The fix:
When opened it was to be latched on its hold open arm. This was impossible to miss. If you were the one that took it off the retaining arm then it had to be locked before you walked away. Miss doing this at great penalty!
Me, I still liked to give it a thump anyway.
That door, if left just unlatched would hang flat. The fact that it was unlocked was then prone to being missed on a walk around.
It was in fact missed on one or two occasions and engine replacements followed.
The fix:
When opened it was to be latched on its hold open arm. This was impossible to miss. If you were the one that took it off the retaining arm then it had to be locked before you walked away. Miss doing this at great penalty!
Me, I still liked to give it a thump anyway.
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A direct approach to Brize would have been shorter, safer and presented less problems. The RAF have all the infrastructure in place to cope.
If you read the report the crew were aware just after take off that debris was left behind them and they would have been aware of the noise.
In my opinion this was more than a pan call scenario.
If you read the report the crew were aware just after take off that debris was left behind them and they would have been aware of the noise.
In my opinion this was more than a pan call scenario.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 22:08.
Ye Olde Pilot
As you obviously have a fund of up to date knowledge in this area. Could you tell me how in the middle of carrying out my emergency procedures I navigate around built up areas?
If the sun is out I can presumably look out of the windowand use a topo chart leaving the other pilot to fly the aircraft and carry out the checklists etc.. If its IMC none of my nav aids in the aircraft show built up areas??
I would need a lot of maps to cover my companies extensive route structure worldwide,not enough room in the cockpit unfortunately. Please enlighten me how to carry out your wishes.
PS Brize not a good diversion in poor weather, only Cat1 and restrictions on auto coupled approaches. But fine in good weather as I can use my built up area map and look out the window.
If the sun is out I can presumably look out of the windowand use a topo chart leaving the other pilot to fly the aircraft and carry out the checklists etc.. If its IMC none of my nav aids in the aircraft show built up areas??
I would need a lot of maps to cover my companies extensive route structure worldwide,not enough room in the cockpit unfortunately. Please enlighten me how to carry out your wishes.
PS Brize not a good diversion in poor weather, only Cat1 and restrictions on auto coupled approaches. But fine in good weather as I can use my built up area map and look out the window.
Last edited by cessnapete; 2nd Jun 2013 at 22:13.
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Sully managed it OK..suggest you ask him.
I don't think he bothered with 'company procedures'.
I still maintain to fly an aircraft with these problems around the M25 was reckless to say the least when straight ahead was a large airport with all the infrastructure available to cope.
A simple mayday call asking to divert to Brize and you'd have help coming out of your ears.
I don't think he bothered with 'company procedures'.
I still maintain to fly an aircraft with these problems around the M25 was reckless to say the least when straight ahead was a large airport with all the infrastructure available to cope.
A simple mayday call asking to divert to Brize and you'd have help coming out of your ears.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 22:16.
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Once the crew declared a mayday they were vectored to approach at LHR having staying aloft longer than necessary. Just look at that meandering track I posted earlier.
They would have had the same assistance much quicker in to Luton, Stansted or Manston.
What is mind boggling is given the state of the aircraft they even considered flying back over central London.
They would have had the same assistance much quicker in to Luton, Stansted or Manston.
What is mind boggling is given the state of the aircraft they even considered flying back over central London.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 22:30.
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Tom Tom or Garmin
Silverstrata Quote:- "Easy, you build a new London Gateway airport in the Thames estuary."
Even a Tom Tom or Garmin GPS with an out of date database will tell you that the Thames estuary is nowhere near London - which is where passengers wanting to go to London want to go!
Calling it a "Gateway" doesn't get the passengers any closer to their chosen destination or prevent bits of aeroplane from falling on Southend, Rochester, Whitstable or any other built up area surrounding the Thames estuary.
Even a Tom Tom or Garmin GPS with an out of date database will tell you that the Thames estuary is nowhere near London - which is where passengers wanting to go to London want to go!
Calling it a "Gateway" doesn't get the passengers any closer to their chosen destination or prevent bits of aeroplane from falling on Southend, Rochester, Whitstable or any other built up area surrounding the Thames estuary.
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Old Pilot:
I maintain it was nothing of the sort. Where does that leave us?
No doubt the AAIB/CAA/EGLL/Government et al, will all have a view ONCE THE FACTS ARE KNOWN. Shall we leave it to them and see if they close EGLL/Publish Emergency Departure Procedures?
In the meantime, no doubt we will see house prices in Twickenham/Central London plummet???
I still maintain to fly an aircraft with these problems around the M25 was reckless to say the least when straight ahead was a large airport with all the infrastructure available to cope.
No doubt the AAIB/CAA/EGLL/Government et al, will all have a view ONCE THE FACTS ARE KNOWN. Shall we leave it to them and see if they close EGLL/Publish Emergency Departure Procedures?
In the meantime, no doubt we will see house prices in Twickenham/Central London plummet???
Last edited by 4468; 2nd Jun 2013 at 22:35.
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What utter tosh you all talk. Any one criticising the pilots is missing the point, and probably isn't a pilot. No one was hurt as a result of the decision to return to Heathrow, so they acted correctly. End of. 
Ps I'm going back to Facebook to swap pics of night stops with my cabin crew. You're all so boring.
Ps I'm going back to Facebook to swap pics of night stops with my cabin crew. You're all so boring.
Last edited by doubledolphins; 2nd Jun 2013 at 23:32.
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With regards Pre-Departure Inspections
I have worked for 3 operators and on 2 different aircraft types.
When doing the Airbus type rating for an overseas carrier, the walkaround training involved a group of 12 of us doing a zip about the airframe with an F/O from that carrier, making sure that everything looked in place, looking at gear pins and so on. And that was it. No mention of cowlings, no videos of best practice etc...
On joining my current carrier, the assumption being as a DEP I was Airbus trained meant no check was done of my knowledge, nor a proper physical observation of it.
Only after years on the fleet and reading of my own, asking other Captains and so on, do I feel better qualified to know what to look for in a walkaround.
And I've always considered myself to be a diligent pro-active pilot. Worrying.
When doing the Airbus type rating for an overseas carrier, the walkaround training involved a group of 12 of us doing a zip about the airframe with an F/O from that carrier, making sure that everything looked in place, looking at gear pins and so on. And that was it. No mention of cowlings, no videos of best practice etc...
On joining my current carrier, the assumption being as a DEP I was Airbus trained meant no check was done of my knowledge, nor a proper physical observation of it.
Only after years on the fleet and reading of my own, asking other Captains and so on, do I feel better qualified to know what to look for in a walkaround.
And I've always considered myself to be a diligent pro-active pilot. Worrying.
What is mind boggling is given the state of the aircraft they even considered flying back over central London.
As far as the pilots knew, they had lost some panels but one engine was working normally. They had lost one of three hydraulic systems, and were having to fly with manual thrust. The right engine only developed a fire on finals. No great drama then for a professional flight crew, who practice such events every 6 months in the SIM. So tell me; why would they have needed to land at Brize? What was the urgency? Brize is a military airbase; do they have steps for an A319? What is the landing distance required for an overweight A319 with no yellow hydraulics? How long is Brize's runway? Was the wind at Brize within limits for landing? Would they have all their braking, antiskid, reversers, flaps and spoilers available? (I know the answers, but do you?)
Or they could have landed at EGSS, but again; where was the urgency? If they had gone there, would there be a stand available for them? Would BA staff have been there to assist? Where would the passengers have gone and who would have looked after them? Are any BA engineers based at EGSS?
Had there been an uncontained fire, of course they would have landed at the nearest suitable runway. But there wasn't. So they didn't.
Most of the "why did they fly over London" brigade seem to be thinking of an engine failure in a Cessna 152. In that instance, you MUST find a field and land in it - you would not dream of doing anything else, and certainly would not attempt to cross a large city, (and it would be physically impossible anyway). However, modern jets with single hydraulic problems and perhaps an engine fire do not fall out of the sky. There are so many more factors a professional flight crew in charge of a modern commercial jet take into account.
What is actually mind boggling is all the armchair 'experts' who have clearly never flown a modern jet, but who think they know better than the actual flight crew who were there.
Last edited by Uplinker; 3rd Jun 2013 at 02:08.
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Flying over highly populated areas
This whole thing about SLF bumping their gums about flying over heavily populated areas is complete and utter twaddle. An aircraft experiencing an engine fire /failure needs every assistance from ATC, that's why the PAN is declared. You see PAN means, I NEED assistance, not some mumbo jumbo cr@p about where you can and can't fly over.
In captain Sullenberg's case, his aircraft was totally disabled, to attempt a landing anywhere other that the Hudson meant certain death to everyone on board. So basically Sullenberg was extremely selfish, in that he wanted to save his own skin. Gues what, when the crew save their own skin, almost always the passengers follow along dumbly. He did a great job, and then went on to display true gentlemanly behaviour in how he carried out the evacuation.
News break, most aircraft that come to grief have little or nothing actually wrong with the machine. Crew do dumb things with perfectly serviceable aircraft, ie Lionair, AF447 Air India Express, need I go on.
Rant over
In captain Sullenberg's case, his aircraft was totally disabled, to attempt a landing anywhere other that the Hudson meant certain death to everyone on board. So basically Sullenberg was extremely selfish, in that he wanted to save his own skin. Gues what, when the crew save their own skin, almost always the passengers follow along dumbly. He did a great job, and then went on to display true gentlemanly behaviour in how he carried out the evacuation.
News break, most aircraft that come to grief have little or nothing actually wrong with the machine. Crew do dumb things with perfectly serviceable aircraft, ie Lionair, AF447 Air India Express, need I go on.
Rant over
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Up linker
I appeared to have made my post almost at the same time as you. I am absolutely in agreement with your sentiments, armchair SLF who wouldn't know their ass from their elbow should stay on Facebook. The crew did a thoroughly professional job, just as you would expect of all of BA's crew, for that matter any reputable airline crew would have done a very similar job, it's what we train for.
Only in the sim expect to miss out at the minima, and have to do a different approach because the airport has just had a major lighting strike, and the slope guidance has failed, and on short final you get a landing gear fire warning, and after landing the right main gear collapses, unexpectedly and you then have to run through the evacuation CX list and carry it out.
A simple OEI approach in VMC (slightly complicated by a previous engine fire, ) is a bit of a yawn, it's what we all train for every six months.
Only in the sim expect to miss out at the minima, and have to do a different approach because the airport has just had a major lighting strike, and the slope guidance has failed, and on short final you get a landing gear fire warning, and after landing the right main gear collapses, unexpectedly and you then have to run through the evacuation CX list and carry it out.
A simple OEI approach in VMC (slightly complicated by a previous engine fire, ) is a bit of a yawn, it's what we all train for every six months.