avherald: Pilots fired for letting pax take pilot seat
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Yes, we all know about the Aeroflot accident Capt Fathom. I knew it would come up which is why I already mentioned (in my earlier post) that it was a case of neither pilots being in their seats, which was without question grossly negligent on their part.
Captjns, you're 100% correct, but don't spoil our reminiscing of the fun days of aviation
Captjns, you're 100% correct, but don't spoil our reminiscing of the fun days of aviation
Paxing All Over The World
Simply as a pax ...
In this day and age no carrier can be seen to allow such behaviour. If the two had not been promptly fired, TAM would have been under a deluge of public media and YouTube attacks. Do you remember: United Breaks Guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? How much worse was it to put all the pax lives in danger?
Danger? Yes, because I often read in here how rapidly a situation can develop and then deteriorate. How easily can a level bust occur? etc.
I am buying a ticket on the presumption that, if one of the crew is out of their seat, then the other HAS a quiet space and full situational awareness. My guess is that TAM flight deck was in party mode and glances at the displays might not show up a slow change in one of the systems.
They might have had full SA and control, the occupant of the FO seat might have had their headset fully clamped over their ears and concentrating on the cruise - or not.
But as a pax, if that was allowed to pass, it would have been a PR disaster at the very least. You would not see me on a carrier that allowed such things to happen. United found that their belated actions could not redress the system and that guitar video from 2009 and is still available.
I agree with LindbergB767. Whatever happened 30 years ago was in another era. If does not matter if you liked it the way it was or not. It is now different.
In this day and age no carrier can be seen to allow such behaviour. If the two had not been promptly fired, TAM would have been under a deluge of public media and YouTube attacks. Do you remember: United Breaks Guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? How much worse was it to put all the pax lives in danger?
Danger? Yes, because I often read in here how rapidly a situation can develop and then deteriorate. How easily can a level bust occur? etc.
I am buying a ticket on the presumption that, if one of the crew is out of their seat, then the other HAS a quiet space and full situational awareness. My guess is that TAM flight deck was in party mode and glances at the displays might not show up a slow change in one of the systems.
They might have had full SA and control, the occupant of the FO seat might have had their headset fully clamped over their ears and concentrating on the cruise - or not.
But as a pax, if that was allowed to pass, it would have been a PR disaster at the very least. You would not see me on a carrier that allowed such things to happen. United found that their belated actions could not redress the system and that guitar video from 2009 and is still available.
I agree with LindbergB767. Whatever happened 30 years ago was in another era. If does not matter if you liked it the way it was or not. It is now different.
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Sorry Hotel Tango
. I too, long for the days of commercial aviation when I got my first job some 35 years ago
.
. I too, long for the days of commercial aviation when I got my first job some 35 years ago.
Last edited by captjns; 16th May 2013 at 13:10.
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- Yes, similar to those above with experience in the late seventies, I was also kindly allowed into the flight deck and to 'steer' the plane in the cruise towards Menorca. Both pilots kept their seats and I stood by the jump seat. That exciting experience as a kid is why I am a pilot today. Those chaps could have refused me entry and saved me from a career marred by petty needless rules (mainly associated with security on the ground rather than in the air)!
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Armchairflyer, "my bad" as the youngsters say these days. I got confused with the fact that there were two kids in the cockpit. In fact they both took turns to sit in the LHS (1st the Captain's daughter, then his son). F/O was indeed in his seat but fully aft and not paying much attention (i.e. monitoring) it seems. He wasted precious seconds readjusting his position (with difficulty) trying to reach the controls whilst the Captain was trying to regain his seat. All in all a complete ba**s up due to a lack of awareness. What I'm saying is that on those occasions when I sat up front, I was aware that the remaining pilot was in full control.
Paxing All Over The World
Photos would have been taken - irrespective. Camera phones rule - just ask Prince Harry. No one asks now - especially those who surround 'meedja' types who think everything surrounds their icon and that nothing is barred.
Example, this morning after I had presented a paper at a meeting, one of the attendees commented that he'd made an audio recording of the whole thing. Did he ask my permission?
That's the way it is. You have to assume that someone on EVERY flight is recording/videoing something and that they will make the worst possible use of it.
Example, this morning after I had presented a paper at a meeting, one of the attendees commented that he'd made an audio recording of the whole thing. Did he ask my permission?
That's the way it is. You have to assume that someone on EVERY flight is recording/videoing something and that they will make the worst possible use of it.
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1970s?
I too have sat in front seats as a kid in an A321 and an ATR42 and a shorts 360. in a cruise, one with no pax. And I was born in the nineties. Jump seat rides were a regular occurrence too before 9/11. And I'm still alive!
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@LindbergB767:
I wasn't implying that it was a sane thing to do, in fact quite the opposite. At the time I didn't think much of it, other than it was very cool to be sitting in the pointy end of a 707, but thinking of it later on it did seem like insanity. On the other hand, it was by no means the only time that I was in the cockpit of an airliner in flight as a kid - times were different in many different ways.
And had we lost an engine or other indicent - well... That would have been a different story entirely. However, I can't believe that all three crew left the cockpit on the basis that there was at least one warm body in there (myself) as opposed to having left the cockpit with nobody in there. Would that have been entirely insane and irresponsible - yes, absolutely. Do I believe that it might have happened - absolutely. Did I fly with the same carrier again? Several times, but not necessarily by choice.
I wasn't implying that it was a sane thing to do, in fact quite the opposite. At the time I didn't think much of it, other than it was very cool to be sitting in the pointy end of a 707, but thinking of it later on it did seem like insanity. On the other hand, it was by no means the only time that I was in the cockpit of an airliner in flight as a kid - times were different in many different ways.
And had we lost an engine or other indicent - well... That would have been a different story entirely. However, I can't believe that all three crew left the cockpit on the basis that there was at least one warm body in there (myself) as opposed to having left the cockpit with nobody in there. Would that have been entirely insane and irresponsible - yes, absolutely. Do I believe that it might have happened - absolutely. Did I fly with the same carrier again? Several times, but not necessarily by choice.
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!974 : Spent some time on flight deck [age 4]of a B747-200, even sat for a bit in one of the front seats... Nobody died.
2010: Met the same captain[ retired in 1980s] By chance in a Av seminar. Told him that he changed my destiny and because of that experience i became a pilot and how grateful i was etc etc. He could not stop beaming .
However my 2 bits. These days we know how the situation is . Would i allow even my children to visit the office when in flight? A very big NO. Danger or no danger its just not done these days.Constant Media scrutiny , constant vigil by the Authorities, Crew reports etc. Its just foolish.
2010: Met the same captain[ retired in 1980s] By chance in a Av seminar. Told him that he changed my destiny and because of that experience i became a pilot and how grateful i was etc etc. He could not stop beaming .
However my 2 bits. These days we know how the situation is . Would i allow even my children to visit the office when in flight? A very big NO. Danger or no danger its just not done these days.Constant Media scrutiny , constant vigil by the Authorities, Crew reports etc. Its just foolish.
Industry Standards..
Whether it is "safe..." or not is not determined by the fact that no accident occurred. Fact is there is a fair chance that a non pilot in the seat is hardly an increase in safety for the other 100+ passengers.
That is the main issue here. Character is what people do when others are not looking. Did the rest of the passengers have a say in letting a non pilot play with their conveyance? Did the pilots tell the company, or the regulator that, amongst the many other rules that are provided for the regulation and occasionally safety of the system, they elect to follow some when it pleases them? If you don't like the rules, campaign to change them, or get out of the industry. If passengers want to fly aircraft, then they have the right to pay money to the training schools, and go get trained, or join the military and learn for free.
What other rules are just suggestions to the crew?
That is the main issue here. Character is what people do when others are not looking. Did the rest of the passengers have a say in letting a non pilot play with their conveyance? Did the pilots tell the company, or the regulator that, amongst the many other rules that are provided for the regulation and occasionally safety of the system, they elect to follow some when it pleases them? If you don't like the rules, campaign to change them, or get out of the industry. If passengers want to fly aircraft, then they have the right to pay money to the training schools, and go get trained, or join the military and learn for free.
What other rules are just suggestions to the crew?
Hotel Tango, agreed, reminiscing is fun but maybe should be moved to "Where Are They Now". All a bit damned serious now after 9-11. Quite right but we do get a bit carried away,sometimes, with ill thought out procedures like "Flight Deck Door Policy"............Passwords to be agreed at the Captain's Briefing, etc, etc. No dispute but let's think it through a bit. For you & others enjoying the fun; 5 years old, BOAC Constellation, Beirute-LHR via loadsa places, spent most of the time in the cockpit. 8 years old, regularly in the cockpit of MEA Viscounts, Tehran-Beirut & back. In fact, so regular, Ozzie skipper gave me his MEA wings. Wore them at school & got a regular beating but the chicks loved me ! Few would have thought that I made it to RHS Viscounts after sponsored pilot training. The chicks never doubted. Standing up behind the Captain on Cally DC7 & Britannia..................oh, a bit older then. Oh yeah, did I ever get a go at the controls of both. Then, multi cockpit visits & a seat in the Captain's chair honed my background & assisted me no end in getting into and staying with this glorious profession. Thanks guys; Moreton's DC3, BUA BAC 1-11, BUA VC10, Laker 707...............pass the tissues.
Quite right all you spoilsports. Different world & I regret, deeply, not being able to share the fun of the past with aspiring youngsters. But, what of that saying; "Rules are for the Guidance of wise men and the obeyance of idiots". Well, something like that.
Ooooh, forgot, Age 7, even got to steer the HMV Baltistan through the Red Sea because Captains allowed visits to the Bridge & the young Gmac to fling the cargo/pax vessel from side to side. Mega.
Bort(as we say in the north), different world today & highly regulated. Quite right. Boo hoo. Nasty terrorists spoling the fun, eh, Hotel Tango ?
Quite right all you spoilsports. Different world & I regret, deeply, not being able to share the fun of the past with aspiring youngsters. But, what of that saying; "Rules are for the Guidance of wise men and the obeyance of idiots". Well, something like that.
Ooooh, forgot, Age 7, even got to steer the HMV Baltistan through the Red Sea because Captains allowed visits to the Bridge & the young Gmac to fling the cargo/pax vessel from side to side. Mega.
Bort(as we say in the north), different world today & highly regulated. Quite right. Boo hoo. Nasty terrorists spoling the fun, eh, Hotel Tango ?
Paxing All Over The World
Agreed that we are no safer from terrorists but we are safer from PR disasters and that costs jobs and money!
I can agree that in the days of old (and I certainly do remember Junior Jet Club and visiting the front of the VC-10) but they had more space, more people in the flight deck, more time. Nowadays it all hapens much faster and in tighter airspace etc.
I can agree that in the days of old (and I certainly do remember Junior Jet Club and visiting the front of the VC-10) but they had more space, more people in the flight deck, more time. Nowadays it all hapens much faster and in tighter airspace etc.
Total overreaction by management who usually have their head up their asses anyway most of the time, so no surprise there.
Poor judgement maybe... but for that a warning would have sufficed.
Once sat in the RHS of an Air Europe 732 during the cruise, aged about eight, which was instrumental in occupying the same seat on the 737 nearly thirty years later but in a professional capacity.
We live in a different world today and I think most would agree (anybody over 40) that the old days were far more preferable.
Poor judgement maybe... but for that a warning would have sufficed.
Once sat in the RHS of an Air Europe 732 during the cruise, aged about eight, which was instrumental in occupying the same seat on the 737 nearly thirty years later but in a professional capacity.
We live in a different world today and I think most would agree (anybody over 40) that the old days were far more preferable.
flash8, I might have been the Captain. When rules were a bit more flexible, I did try to give back a little of what was extended to me. One very bright chap (might have been you) pointed to the emg rope stowage & asked what was in there. I gave him a measured response telling him that in the event of the Flight Deck Crew being unable to exit via the cockpit door, we would simply open the window,drop the rope, ensure it was attatched to the aircraft & slide down. He looked at me, quizically, and said " Blimey, must be a very long rope !".
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In Africa maybe, but not here in Europe.
Not so ! I am of an age where I go back a few years ! As a glider pilot I was frequently allowed entry in the cockpit and it was not uncommon I was offered the co- or captain's seat when either one needed a leak or a stretch.
Some of these crews were also glider pilots and familiar with my club and one, or two received their initial flight training in my club, where I was also one of the instructors. I remember KLM and BOAC in addition to Air Canada and Air Transat but not Air France.
In stabilised conditions, such as mid Atlantic, there is little reason for both pilots to be in their seats and the one pilot (flying) kept a weathered eye on important feedback from the instrument panel and radio x'missions.
It stopped when terrorists began airborne attacks. I am just one of the people who lost a privilege under the greater safety concerns for aircraft in flight. (and made the flight all the more boring what with a lower standard of service in standard class)
Some of these crews were also glider pilots and familiar with my club and one, or two received their initial flight training in my club, where I was also one of the instructors. I remember KLM and BOAC in addition to Air Canada and Air Transat but not Air France.
In stabilised conditions, such as mid Atlantic, there is little reason for both pilots to be in their seats and the one pilot (flying) kept a weathered eye on important feedback from the instrument panel and radio x'missions.
It stopped when terrorists began airborne attacks. I am just one of the people who lost a privilege under the greater safety concerns for aircraft in flight. (and made the flight all the more boring what with a lower standard of service in standard class)
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Yankee Whisky
I can still remember on a number of occasions going into the cockpit of 747's on the way from London - Australia and return, including sitting in the pilots seat.
I think the last time (for me) would have been 1982.
Glad I had the opportunity to do it, still remember the views
and the moon on very clear nights.
I can still remember on a number of occasions going into the cockpit of 747's on the way from London - Australia and return, including sitting in the pilots seat.
I think the last time (for me) would have been 1982.
Glad I had the opportunity to do it, still remember the views
and the moon on very clear nights.