American Airlines Flight 742 "flight control system" problems
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At 200kts the FW190 rolled at @ 140 degrees a second, the Mustang at @ 90 degrees a second.
At slower speeds those rates decrease.
So SSR and Bubbers seem to be saying a Cessna 340 will outroll a Mustang. Now technology may have moved on, but .......
So far Bubbers has failed to even try to address that point.
Additionally, as any combat or aerobatics pilot will know the dynamics of Bubbers "move", as he described it, just don't stack up. If all he did was roll inverted, maintaining level, all he's achieved is to keep going the same way just upside down. To keep level he'd have to push at which point the harness becomes important, if he keeps positive G the nose drops as soon as he rolls past 90 ( yes I know it will begin to drop sooner depending on G) and then he loses visual so the only way he can roll inverted and keep visual is to pitch nose up then roll but that's not what he said he did.
If it happened it didn't happen the way Bubbers has described it
At slower speeds those rates decrease.
So SSR and Bubbers seem to be saying a Cessna 340 will outroll a Mustang. Now technology may have moved on, but .......
So far Bubbers has failed to even try to address that point.
Additionally, as any combat or aerobatics pilot will know the dynamics of Bubbers "move", as he described it, just don't stack up. If all he did was roll inverted, maintaining level, all he's achieved is to keep going the same way just upside down. To keep level he'd have to push at which point the harness becomes important, if he keeps positive G the nose drops as soon as he rolls past 90 ( yes I know it will begin to drop sooner depending on G) and then he loses visual so the only way he can roll inverted and keep visual is to pitch nose up then roll but that's not what he said he did.
If it happened it didn't happen the way Bubbers has described it
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ok boys and girls...lets see who has the presence of mind to time the roll rate while avoiding traffic. if bubbers said it was some exact time in seconds...that is fine
if you think the P51 can roll faster, it probably can...why not ask bubbers as he as actually flown one...have you?
Indeed bubbers has a friend who flew the winning p51 at Reno...lets ask him.
it seems to me that planes head on would both turn right, bubbers kept going past the 90 and ended up rolling all the way around...and IF THE INTRUDER had turned left, bubbers would still be alive...as it was the intruder turned right and IF bubbers hadn't kept rolling, it would have worked out...but something told bubbers to keep rolling and I don't blame him...sometimes the eye/hand can do more than an engineering mind over thinking things.
AND we have been talking about avoiding birds...why not planes? And no, rolling an airliner to avoid a bird is not what I'm getting at.
have any of you flown P51s, FW190's or Cessna 300 series ? I've flown a 320 and I'm sure its roll rate is the same as a 340. I've even read that after WW2 the US navy put permanent wing tip fuel tanks on F6Fs and their roll rate increased. The 300 series (except 303) has tip tanks and it rolls pretty fast.
And if it turns out that bubbers really did it in three seconds, is that a huge problem for anyone? come off it.
I'll tell you how I know bubbers is who he says. We have chatted via E mail and even though we live thousands of miles apart, he knew in great detail a mutual friend. And bubbers told me all about something that only a few people in the world would know...so he is/was a pilot for a big freaking airline and flew the planes he said he has.
sheesh...I'll tell you one thing...if bubber s had been in the cockpit of Air France it wouldn't have stalled and fallen out of the sky over the atlantic.
if you think the P51 can roll faster, it probably can...why not ask bubbers as he as actually flown one...have you?
Indeed bubbers has a friend who flew the winning p51 at Reno...lets ask him.
it seems to me that planes head on would both turn right, bubbers kept going past the 90 and ended up rolling all the way around...and IF THE INTRUDER had turned left, bubbers would still be alive...as it was the intruder turned right and IF bubbers hadn't kept rolling, it would have worked out...but something told bubbers to keep rolling and I don't blame him...sometimes the eye/hand can do more than an engineering mind over thinking things.
AND we have been talking about avoiding birds...why not planes? And no, rolling an airliner to avoid a bird is not what I'm getting at.
have any of you flown P51s, FW190's or Cessna 300 series ? I've flown a 320 and I'm sure its roll rate is the same as a 340. I've even read that after WW2 the US navy put permanent wing tip fuel tanks on F6Fs and their roll rate increased. The 300 series (except 303) has tip tanks and it rolls pretty fast.
And if it turns out that bubbers really did it in three seconds, is that a huge problem for anyone? come off it.
I'll tell you how I know bubbers is who he says. We have chatted via E mail and even though we live thousands of miles apart, he knew in great detail a mutual friend. And bubbers told me all about something that only a few people in the world would know...so he is/was a pilot for a big freaking airline and flew the planes he said he has.
sheesh...I'll tell you one thing...if bubber s had been in the cockpit of Air France it wouldn't have stalled and fallen out of the sky over the atlantic.
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ashling...don't put words into my mouth!
and folks...anyone who has flown a plane with tip tanks knows that once you get it rolling, it can be easier to keep rolling than to stop.
exact chronology may be slightly imperfect, and anyone that times his rolls perfectly has my respect. and I think bubbers related his incident correctly.
and folks...anyone who has flown a plane with tip tanks knows that once you get it rolling, it can be easier to keep rolling than to stop.
exact chronology may be slightly imperfect, and anyone that times his rolls perfectly has my respect. and I think bubbers related his incident correctly.
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But it takes longer to get rolling. Inertia chap.
My problem is why would anyone with half a brain cell want to waste one, two or even three seconds rolling inverted, which achieved the square root of absolutely sweet FA, when he could have just pulled, pushed, or just done the correct thing in the first place.
Can you prove that?
By the way, you didn't answer my question...
Riiiiiiiiiiight! You say you taught aeros?
Did you encounter negative g during your amazing escape manuever?
By the way you didn't answer my questions...
I think bubbers did fine...spandex...what is your problem?
bubbers is still here and he isn't lying.
By the way, you didn't answer my question...
Originally Posted by Bubbers
so obviously negative G's only happen when you maintain level flight while inverted.
Did you encounter negative g during your amazing escape manuever?
By the way you didn't answer my questions...
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SSR "exact chronology may be slightly imperfect"
You can shorten that to two words "he exagerated". He's been very specific and clear about the 2 seconds.
I've lost track of the number of posts that Bubbers refers to "teaching aerobatics" or something similar, he wears it as a badge. He then comes out with a story that clearly doesn't stack up on a host of levels which then undermines his credibility on pretty much everything else.
I could list everything I've flown and done but it would achieve little, other than to ID myself or narrow it down a-lot, but its pretty evident from my posts that I fly an Airbus (not my only airline type) and have flown in the military, lets just say a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of roles. People can judge from what I write whether I know what I'm on about which kind of summarises Bubbers problem at the moment. I.E. He's being judged on what he writes, not on who he actually is, its an annomymous forum after all.
You can shorten that to two words "he exagerated". He's been very specific and clear about the 2 seconds.
I've lost track of the number of posts that Bubbers refers to "teaching aerobatics" or something similar, he wears it as a badge. He then comes out with a story that clearly doesn't stack up on a host of levels which then undermines his credibility on pretty much everything else.
I could list everything I've flown and done but it would achieve little, other than to ID myself or narrow it down a-lot, but its pretty evident from my posts that I fly an Airbus (not my only airline type) and have flown in the military, lets just say a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of roles. People can judge from what I write whether I know what I'm on about which kind of summarises Bubbers problem at the moment. I.E. He's being judged on what he writes, not on who he actually is, its an annomymous forum after all.
I used to have a great notion to buy a pair of bookends made out of really solid American hardwood. Now that I have seen a pair at close quarters, I have lost the desire.
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ashling...tell me, with your vast experience in flying exactly how long you were in the flare regime ( in seconds) on your flight 20 years ago?
I looked up the original testing of the cessna 310 series (which is the basis for the 340) and the test pilots were amazed at the roll rate.
(roll rates, as an aside...I recall the A4 had a roll rate of 720 degrees per second.)
now, before you tell me that I said bubbers exagerated, you go out and roll a Cessna 300 series, time the roll rate and report back.
I've noticed that there seem to be two types of pilots on pprune...real airline pilots and ''others''. I'm a real airline pilot and so is bubbers.
oh and someone who says they have been in the military and flown in a wide variety of roles...usually means they weren't good enough to fly fighters.
so , believe what you want...and any airline pilot that would chose to fly the airbus in an airline that had other choices...well that shows us all something, now doesn' t it?
I looked up the original testing of the cessna 310 series (which is the basis for the 340) and the test pilots were amazed at the roll rate.
(roll rates, as an aside...I recall the A4 had a roll rate of 720 degrees per second.)
now, before you tell me that I said bubbers exagerated, you go out and roll a Cessna 300 series, time the roll rate and report back.
I've noticed that there seem to be two types of pilots on pprune...real airline pilots and ''others''. I'm a real airline pilot and so is bubbers.
oh and someone who says they have been in the military and flown in a wide variety of roles...usually means they weren't good enough to fly fighters.
so , believe what you want...and any airline pilot that would chose to fly the airbus in an airline that had other choices...well that shows us all something, now doesn' t it?
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Must be true then if you say so. 
Did you indeed? Gonna share the amazement? No?
Yes it does, that there are more important things in life than what kit you fly.
By the way you still haven't told us how you real airline pilots can see through the floor.
P.S. SSR, I'm a real airline pilot and so is my wife.
With apologies to the Monty Pyhton team.
I looked up the original testing of the cessna 310 series
and any airline pilot that would chose to fly the airbus in an airline that had other choices...well that shows us all something, now doesn' t it?
By the way you still haven't told us how you real airline pilots can see through the floor.
P.S. SSR, I'm a real airline pilot and so is my wife.
With apologies to the Monty Pyhton team.
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 6th Apr 2013 at 20:18.
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Hi,
Lord Spandex Masher
Virgin launches glass-bottomed plane - Richard's Blog - Virgin.com
Lord Spandex Masher
By the way you still haven't told us how you real airline pilots can see through the floor.
Last edited by jcjeant; 6th Apr 2013 at 23:41.