American Airlines Flight 742 "flight control system" problems

[bubbers44]

Sully probably doesn't feel as hohum as you do about not being concerned about bird strikes. Go ahead and go to that heads down, who cares what is in front of the window approach. I was heads down getting LAX approach charts out flying a Cessna 340 over LGB when I noticed the lighting seemed different and I was nose to nose with a single engine aircraft. Not knowing which direction he was going to turn I rolled inverted because I had only one move. When he rolled right as he should have I paralleled his wings and rolled with him clearing by about 50 ft. No reports were filed but when he first saw me I was inverted. I wish I could hear his story because probably nobody would believe him. He did the right thing but I wasn't sure he would.

I instructed aerobatics so just pulled back enough to clear him after going inverted. I could pull away more than he could push over. Birds have to be seen to be avoided. Heads down means no bird avoidance so if you are flying into an airport like TGU you need to be heads up because they are in flocks and can easily be seen if you keep your eyes open, not down pushing buttons.

[bubbers44]

I have only one bird strike flying 17,000 hours with the airlines and one instructing. The instructing bird hit the wing causing a dent and the 757 hit above my window leaving TGU. It caused no damage and we saw it but it kept turning with us. If you have multile bird strikes try looking out the window. That is what it is made for.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

If you have multiple bird strikes it's probably too late. Look all you like and avoid all you like but try that going into somewhere like CDG. I'd rather hit a bird than a 747 so 747s are what I'll be looking for.

Try avoiding birds at somewhere like CMF (you'll gather up a hang glider instead or lots of granite) or SIR (you'll just gather a lot of granite). You won't see them anyway, no matter how hard you look.

Try to spot a Thrush against a back drop of the ground at fifty odd feet above the threshold with enough time to decide what you're gonna do and then do it.

Despite the fact that you saw the bird that hit you, you still didn't manage to avoid it! Not a good record to share when you're advocating see and avoid really.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

By the way, how did you see him if you were inverted?!

[bubbers44]

It isn't hard at all. Flying upside down is quite easy once you do it. You push to go up and pull to go down.

[con-pilot]

con pilot..I know about that ditching...and thanks for publishing it...but I meant due to birds. I know you did too!

My bad, beers on me.

I've not had that many bird strikes, maybe about six in 42 years*. Only had one that did any real damage. Hit a seagull (we think) and it managed to hit directly between two LEDs on the right wing (727), had to replace both at the next stop.

But then again, I've never flew a jet with under-slung engines, all have been tail mounted. Which may explain why I never had a bird strike in an engine.


* That includes Midway Island, never had a bird strike there. Why not, I've not a clue, as there are plenty of birds around, trying their best to commit suicide by flying into you.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You don't say! Doesn't explain how you could see the other guy once you were inverted and pulling away from him.

I'm curious about something else. How many of the birds that you did see (the ones that didn't hit you) were actually going to hit you?

[bubbers44]

LSM,I was not flying, the FO was and his decisions I agreed with. We were at 500 ft and we went opposite our clearance to miss him and the bird turned with us, we reversed to our clearance and the bird turned back, the FO said they always dive and I agreed, he didn't so we did all we could and that is my only airline bird strike. We did everything we could to avoid it but the bird commited suicide.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So just for clarity you couldn't avoid it despite being able to see it?

See and avoid works does it?

[bubbers44]

LSM, I have no idea how many birds I WOULD HAVE HIT. MY GUESS IS over 6. Most of my check airmen and chief pilots have hit birds and taken them out of service into TGU, I never have in 600 landings. They are occupied instructing and I just have to land so look way out in front. That is how to avoid birds.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So out of the seven birds that you had a chance of hitting you actually hit one. Which leads me to my other question. How many of the birds that you did see, but didn't hit, were actually going to hit you?

[bubbers44]

LSM, I decided not to respond to your nonsense so goodbye

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Tough questions huh?

How hard is it to answer how many of the birds that you saw (seven of them) were going to crash into you? Sorry, we know about one so what about the other six?

How about the aeroplane that you could see despite being inverted and pulling away from?

Your silence will be deafening.

[Clandestino]

FAA lists 2 dual engine birdstrikes per year.

Oh, look! There goes CRJ.... and MD80.... and A-10... and Citation...and French Falcon.... and 717. Seems that birds indeed are not air molecules but share common trait of being sucked into engine if they found themselves in front of intake even if it is situated waay back, near the fuselage. But then in the parallel universe where old pilots very experienced in Honduran ops roll inverted their Cessnas 340 to avoid head-on traffic instead of simply turning right, it might be indeed possible to shield the engine intake by the wing or fuselage. Not in our one, I'm afraid.

In my view airlines training systems are not set up to develop large numbers of low hours pilots effectively.

Some are, some aren't. I don't have scope broad enough to judge what's the percentage of those who perform their training functions properly but i am pretty sure those who send their cadets up in Citation Jets, Learjets or long Cheyennes have the right idea.

It works ok for restricted numbers of high ability individuals though and thats why a balanced recruitment policy is still best in my view.

Problem is with ex-mil pilots supply ever shrinking and general aviation on the verge of extinction (or over it) in some countries, you just can't have balanced recruitment policy and yet you have to match seats with bodies.

Sully coped, in my view, because he was an able indidual who had a wealth of experience to fall back on.

Certainly, but I'd add one more contributing factor; capt Sullenberger runs aeronautical consultancy business on the side, so it's not just he can walk the walk.

we have a problem and have had for some time.

We do, but it will take a long time to manifest itself in increase of prematurely expired passengers and when it does, it will take ages to get us back where we were even if we promptly do what is right to mitigate it.

Problem, as I see it, are the pilots who know all the books but don't know what they mean. They pass their ATPL multiple choice exams with flying colours. They can do scripted sim sessions all right. They are great in normal ops as they know SOPs pretty well and stick to them. They might get lucky and have successful career without ever coming across the complex emergencies, not covered by ECAM or QRH.

Or not.

Still, their bacon might get saved by the competent pilot occupying the other seat. If they are particularly unlucky to represent typical pilot in their crew, well, they're doomed.

From my, admittedly limited, perspective I'd say their number is still very, very small which anyway presents increase form very,very,very small of decade ago. I mentioned the factors that are working towards their increase in F/O population. Real troubles will start when some less than scrupulous company decides to relax promotion criteria and lets them spill into left hand seat.

[Machinbird]

LSM

Try to spot a Thrush against a back drop of the ground at fifty odd feet above the threshold with enough time to decide what you're gonna do and then do it.

Don't worry about the thrushes. They aren't that big. Worry about the cranes, the eagles, the geese, and the vultures and anything else that is big enough to do serious damage.

Your engine is designed to chop up and spit out a thrush. But take evasive action on a flock of starlings if you can. The feathers per second count down the engine may exceed its capacity.

[bubbers44]

LSM, it is hard to respond when you make no sense.

[bubbers44]

If you are inverted the windshield still works, just look at the belly of the other airplane and stay parallel with it. Quite simple.

[Machinbird]

I like it when she says, "Do it again".

Yes, but the video is mis-titled. It is an aileron roll.

[bubbers44]

eyesight inverted is the same as upright. Try it sometime. We avoided a possible midair by just rolling over at the last second and it worked and yes, we could judge the distance from other aircraft with no problem. We had less than 2 seconds to respond so saved a possible midair collision.

[bubbers44]

If you have less than two seconds you would turn right and hope the other guy does the same thing or do a maneuver that guarantees you will survive? I did the guaranteed maneuver to survive. It worked. If he had turned the same way we would have had a midair collision. I am alive because I took the sure way, not the technically legal way. As it worked out he turned right so we would have missed each other but I had no clue what he was going to do.