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ATR72 Incident at FCO

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ATR72 Incident at FCO

Old 3rd Feb 2013, 15:59
  #21 (permalink)  
1DC
 
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Why bring Monarch into this? What do you think is wrong with them??
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 18:30
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't want to specific bring them in, but in general why takes a good airline with descent name these joker airlines from Eastern Europe... P2F wannabe's and skygod captains... End of the day it's your name up to grabs and this all for what, few hundred an hour...

Monarch had 2 incidents this summer on leased in eastern european toys...

Incident: Aurela B733 at Birmingham on Sep 21st 2012, runway overrun

Incident: AirExplore B734 near Limoges on Jul 24th 2012, loss of cabin pressure

It is off course hard to say but doubt Titan would have had this...
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 18:53
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Carpatair have been operating scheduled services in their own name for some time, mainly with Saab 2000s and Fokker 70/100s. I have to say that I haven't heard any scare stories about them. Plenty about Air France though.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 18:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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HotelTango check here...

The Aviation Herald

For such small fleet, this is a big list not to be proud off. Also in this lease to Alitalia they were suspended for few days just last week over safety issues, now this....
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 18:58
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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@HT

Your post is the best joke on PPRuNe I have read.

Thanks
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:14
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Updates

Hetfield wrote:-

Very fast CIR

(Corporate Identity Removal)
But also, as it turns out, spectacularly ineffective CIR. There's hardly an Italian newspaper this morning that doesn't have before-and-after photographs of the aircraft prominently displayed, usually with appropriately acerbic commentary attached.

Additional information from the Italian media:-

Sig. Turrà now says that the windspeed was 25 kt at the time of the accident (last night, on TV interviews, he was saying "25-35 kt").

The local (Civitavecchia) prosecutor's office has taken custody of the aircraft and had it removed by crane and low-loader to a secure location. No indication of whether he or the accident investigators gave permission for the overnight paint job, which was done at Alitalia's request. (Although I'm not an expert in either field, it seems extraordinary to me that either should have agreed to this.)

Turrà said that no. 1 runway at FCO (16R/34L, apparently) was closed last night because spray from the sea was blowing over it, so the only runway available was 16L/34R. When asked whether this meant the airport should have been closed and traffic diverted elsewhere, he emphatically disagreed, saying that it was the pilot's decision whether to land or divert. Another ENAC guy, Quaranta, added that no other aircraft had gone off the runway last night. Listening to them both, there seemed to be a strong element of "nothing to do with me, guv'" in their responses to questions.

Anpav, one of the Italian flight attendants' unions, has demanded that Carpatair's sub-contracting arrangement with Alitalia be ditched permanently and is doing a great deal of "we told you so." It describes the arrangement as "a clumsy attempt to reduce costs with no obvious benefits." It reminds people (no idea whether this is true or not) that in the Pisa fuel-leak incident of December 11 last year, it was two members of the airside ground staff that saw fuel flowing out while the aircraft was taxiing to the runway; got on the 'phone to the control tower; and had the latter bring the flight back when it was already in the air. The implication seems to be that the flight crew was remiss in not realising how much they were losing. Bearing in mind that it took two hours to clean the spilled fuel from the Pisa runway, it does seem to have been a matter of more than a few drips here and there.

Under Law 231/2001, criminal and civil liability in this matter, it is claimed, rests in the Italian legal system with Alitalia, not Carpatair.

Last edited by Blind Squirrel; 3rd Feb 2013 at 20:07. Reason: Cleaned up typographical errors
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:27
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Laugh all you wish Hetfield, but Air France have quite an impressive list too. Perhaps enough for them to qualify as "cowboys" too?
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:34
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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@HT

With your logic, any 3rd world bush hopper is comparable to AF.

Gimmie a break!

Look how many pax/takeoffs per day are done with AF!

BTW

I'm not with AF!
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Harry,

you want to know how many west-europeans (even DUTCH) worked for carpat? i was there.....
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:41
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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hetfield, I think you have an agenda! I used AFR as an example only because, regardless of fleet size, they have had some frightning incidents and accidents for a safety conscious 1st world carrier. There are others too.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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@HT

I'm afraid, you still didn't get it!

With increasingly number of flights, chances raise for an accident/incident.

All major carriers like AF/LH/BA, you name it, are facing it!

It's a question, yes not solely, of statistics.

To compare carpate xy with AF is just inappropriate.

Next time try to compare Tahiti xyz island hoppers with BA!

Last edited by hetfield; 3rd Feb 2013 at 19:52.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:55
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The Corriere della Sera claims that the same aircraft (unclear whether it was the same flight crew) was involved in an incident a couple of hours earlier on the outbound leg (Rome-Pisa), getting too close to another aircraft as a result of misunderstanding a clearance from Pisa ATC. No more detail than that as yet.

The captain is said to be "superlatively experienced" 15,000 hours total; 9,000 on type; an ATR 72 check pilot. He spent most of last night being interrogated by the Italian fuzz.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:57
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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changes on ac?

hi -

seems quite uncommon to me, that any authority would accept an accident involved aircraft to be manipulated before thourough/final investigation?

rgds
welle
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 19:58
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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My feeling is that you're confusing two issues and not getting my point hetfield.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 20:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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@Welle

That's Italy.

Do you know Francesco Schettino, Captain of stranded Concordia, is challenging his companie's decision to fire him?

Do you know Berlusconi, a multi sentenced criminal, has been voted for president 4 times by italian voters?
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 21:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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It's still unclear what happened. This was an accident for sure. Any comment on East or West European airlines makes no sense at all in this case.
What is more important that cost cutting has a negative effect on safety.
Like the whole P2F system is an accident going to happen. An accident like this which is probably related to do the lack of handling/flying skills.
Can you imagine the situation when a P2F copi is left alone?

P2F is not an East European idea.

And we still do not know whtat happened .

I was just thinking.

Last edited by goodpic; 3rd Feb 2013 at 21:30.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 21:35
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Goodpic,

You have an airline, that is flying a new type for them for less as 3 months.

Has an fleet of 4 types in total 11 units. With 2 runway excursions in 12 months.

And a shit load of other incidents...

Take them and an above normal windy evening.... and this is what happens... Luckily all can tell.. it has all ingredients for a good stew.

But you are right, let's wait 3,5 years until the Romanians and Italians have their final report. Pilota errore, or how do you write that in Italian...

24JAN2013: Alitalia replaces Carpatair on Ancona route after incident
Alitalia (AZ, Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO)) has temporarily replaced wet-lease operator Carpatair (V3, Timisoara Traian Vuia International (TSR)) on its route from Rome Fiumicino to Ancona Falconara (AOI). This follows an incident involving an ATR 72-500 of Carpatair on January 17 where the aircraft had to return back to Ancona for an emergency landing due to a problem with its airconditioning system. A similar problem had already developed on a flight on January 7 leading to another flight having to return back to Pisa. Alitalia is now temporarily using EMB-175s of subsidiary Alitalia CityLiner (CT, Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO)) on the route until the cause of the incidents has been identified. Carpatair continues to operate its second ATR 72-500 on behalf of Alitalia between Rome Fiumicino and Pisa Galileo Galilei International (PSA) and has asked Avions de Transport Régional (Toulouse Blagnac (TLS)) for assistance in the investigation of two incidents.

01FEB2013: Carpatair resumes full Alitalia wet-lease operations
Carpatair (V3, Timisoara Traian Vuia International (TSR)) has again resumed operations with its second ATR 72-500 operating on a wet-lease contract for Alitalia (AZ, Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO)) now operating three daily services from Rome Fiumicino to both Bologna Guglielmo Marconi (BLQ) and Pisa Galileo Galilei International (PSA) on behalf of its Italian partner. Alitalia subsidiary Alitalia CityLiner (CT, Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO)) will continue to operate between Rome and Ancona Falconara (AOI) going forward where it had replaced Carpatair from mid-January following an incident with one of the ATR 72-500's air conditioning system. Carpatair has meanwhile retired its last of a total of three Fokker 70s with YR-KMC (c/n 11569) also expected to join Australian charter carrier Alliance Airlines (QQ, Brisbane International (BNE)) shortly like the other two aircraft. Carpatair continues to operate two ATR 72-500s, a B737-300, three Fokker 100s and five Saab 2000s.


03FEB2013: Alitalia suspends Carpatair agreement following accident
Alitalia (AZ, Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO)) has announced that it has temporarily suspended its wet-lease agreement with partner carrier Carpatair (V3, Timisoara Traian Vuia International (TSR)) following a runway excursion incident of ATR 72-500 YR-ATS (c/n 533) on arrival to Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO) on February 2. Alitalia has wet-leased two ATR 72-500s from Carpatair for its domestic routes from Rome Fiumicino to Bologna Guglielmo Marconi (BLQ) and Pisa Galileo Galilei International (PSA).

Last edited by harriewillem; 3rd Feb 2013 at 21:38.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 22:03
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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There are other airlines with issues. Even though what happened here might not be a surprise for some it still doesn't mean that every pilot/airline from East Europe is dangerous while everything which is from the "West" is totally safe/nice/well organized. We have seen very f... sorry mishandled Xwind landings in the past. For example from very reputable airlines too.

Nowadays you have no idea who is sitting in front where is he/she from etc. There are good and bad everywhere.

What I see is that Alitalia is one of the last airlines in Europe/world? where you can still enjoy your work and its benefits and still can stay at home and now the unions find this case as a superb opportunity to justife their fight. I don't blame them. It's good to fly and work for a flag carrier and sleep in your bed every night without worrying the schooling of your children in your next "home".
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 22:21
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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@harriewillem

Carpatair never ever lost one passenger. Does the number 234 ring a bell when it comes to a certain dutch company?

Human errors happen everywhere, it has nothing to do with nationalities. You might end up in the mud on a bad day even if you fly a mighty blue aircraft and you can only hope there won't be someone judging you on the next day without knowing the facts.

Photo of Boeing 737-406 PH-BTC - Aviation Safety Network
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 01:07
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Romanian pilots are as good as the Dutch ones are. No difference.
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