KLMuk trouble at mill!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: york
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KLMuk trouble at mill!!
There have been meetings recently about the split between KLMuk and Buzz and the resultant split in the pilot force.
The VNV has made it clear that the KLMuk pilots would be treated with complete contempt and shoved at the bottom of the KLM / KLC seniority list as a result the KLMuk pilots want NOTHING to do with KLM / KLC, a suggestion has been to keep the pilots in a seperate company in the UK on their own list and crew KLMuk and Buzz flights on a contract basis.
So the message is to the KLM / KLC pilots you can forget a F100 command as you will not be invited into the KLMuk seniority list, you bought this upon yourselfs by your own greed.
The message to the company is we will NOT be split as a pilot force, so keep your eyes off our terms and conditions and our final salary pension.
As you can see feeling are running very high i wouldnt be surprised if industrial action is taken.
The VNV has made it clear that the KLMuk pilots would be treated with complete contempt and shoved at the bottom of the KLM / KLC seniority list as a result the KLMuk pilots want NOTHING to do with KLM / KLC, a suggestion has been to keep the pilots in a seperate company in the UK on their own list and crew KLMuk and Buzz flights on a contract basis.
So the message is to the KLM / KLC pilots you can forget a F100 command as you will not be invited into the KLMuk seniority list, you bought this upon yourselfs by your own greed.
The message to the company is we will NOT be split as a pilot force, so keep your eyes off our terms and conditions and our final salary pension.
As you can see feeling are running very high i wouldnt be surprised if industrial action is taken.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Down Under
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
buzz boy, was it feedback from KLM/KLC or 'advice' from the VNV ?
I didn't realise there was an 'intergration' comittee (or whatever) looking into it so I suspect it was the latter ie. 'advice' fron the VNV. Just thought I'd let you know that the VNV doesn't need to consider the wisdom of KLC pilot opinion to state it's own 'advice'. They have ruled the KLC pilots for many years using the 'divide and conquer' technique to split the group, screwing the careers of many good pilots. Principle simply does not come into it ! So there is probably a group within KLC that would welcome an equitable intergaration of the groups but that opinion would not be passed on by the VNV if they saw even the slightest threat to any of the KLM pilots careers. So I would suggest trying to find a contact within KLC rather than the VNV, then you might find you've got some common ground. So good luck to you, Don't let your guard down, and read the fine print before you sign anything !
I didn't realise there was an 'intergration' comittee (or whatever) looking into it so I suspect it was the latter ie. 'advice' fron the VNV. Just thought I'd let you know that the VNV doesn't need to consider the wisdom of KLC pilot opinion to state it's own 'advice'. They have ruled the KLC pilots for many years using the 'divide and conquer' technique to split the group, screwing the careers of many good pilots. Principle simply does not come into it ! So there is probably a group within KLC that would welcome an equitable intergaration of the groups but that opinion would not be passed on by the VNV if they saw even the slightest threat to any of the KLM pilots careers. So I would suggest trying to find a contact within KLC rather than the VNV, then you might find you've got some common ground. So good luck to you, Don't let your guard down, and read the fine print before you sign anything !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: york
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to quote the VNV:
"The VNV told KLM that they can live with the new structure. It means an expansion of work. But the consequences (in relation to the pilots agreement) have to be arranged properly. The F100 wages can only be discussed in combination with a KLM/C combined career. Solutions for the KLM-UK pilots may not affect the KLM/C seniority list in any way."
in other words the VNV are already deciding on the salaries for flying the F100 as a career move for KLM and KLC pilots however KLMuk pilots may NOT have any seniority at all!!!
Well i got news for you guys, we dont want to be part of YOU! and the aircraft come with US!!
KLMuk pilots have been feeding the KLM main line long haul for many years now, providing 27% of the long haul passengers keeping KLM pilots in jobs, therefore we deserve seniority rights for years of service, or NO DEAL !!
"The VNV told KLM that they can live with the new structure. It means an expansion of work. But the consequences (in relation to the pilots agreement) have to be arranged properly. The F100 wages can only be discussed in combination with a KLM/C combined career. Solutions for the KLM-UK pilots may not affect the KLM/C seniority list in any way."
in other words the VNV are already deciding on the salaries for flying the F100 as a career move for KLM and KLC pilots however KLMuk pilots may NOT have any seniority at all!!!
Well i got news for you guys, we dont want to be part of YOU! and the aircraft come with US!!
KLMuk pilots have been feeding the KLM main line long haul for many years now, providing 27% of the long haul passengers keeping KLM pilots in jobs, therefore we deserve seniority rights for years of service, or NO DEAL !!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
buzz boy,
As a member of the VNV, I object to your characterisation of myself and my fellow union members as greedy and malicious. I also feel that your grievances and threats of industrial action are inappropriate considering that the negotiations between KLM and the VNV over the amalgamation of the KLC and KLMuk flight operations have not even begun. No one has tried to screw you and in my opinion no one will. In your post, I believe that you were trying to quote from a newsletter that the VNV bestuur (board of directors) sent to it’s members. I believe that this is a more complete English translation of the relevant section:
Although the KLC pilots were added to the KLM senority list in 1997, it is still not possible for KLM cruise relief pilots, some of whom have been out of school for five years and still not flown, to bid onto the KLC aircraft. The reference above to the combination of the KLM and KLC career advancement protocols which KLM is now ready to discuss addresses this inequity.
A seemingly small yet very important point is “that the solution decided for the KLMuk pilots must in no way cause adjustments to the KLM senority list.” It does not say KLM-KLC senority list, as you have indicated. What they mean is that as far as the KLM aircraft are concerned, B737 and above, it would only be acceptable to the VNV for any KLMuk pilots who would become eligible to fly those aircraft due to a merger, would do so after all the KLM and KLC pilots who are already in line. This is only fair. Being added to the bottom of the KLM list would only be an improvement to a KLMuk pilot’s career prospects, as some of the younger ones could, eventually, become 747 captains. Obviously everyone is going to be able to keep their current position and salary, and I’m sure that the negotiators will strive to make sure that the first officers time-to-command on the regional aircraft remains in line with what it currently is. KLC will insist on it anyway in order to keep training costs down. The biggest disadvantage for KLMuk pilots, as I see it, is that KLC will probably eventually want to base everyone in Amsterdam. I’m also sure, however, that you will be given the option of working for an independent Buzz, if you would prefer, which is going to become a very large airline on it’s own, because of KLM’s money and at the expense of further expansion of the “blue” network.
I would ask you to please refrain from overreacting to gossip and speculation and wait to hear what has been offered to you before denouncing the VNV. The VNV represents not only KLM pilots but also KLC pilots, including any new ones coming in from KLMuk. Also keep in mind that the VNV will in all likelihood hold more negotiations with BALPA sometime in the future, and at that time from a point of disadvantage. Senority mergers are never easy, but I’m sure that we can come to an agreement that will be equally unacceptable for all those concerned.
As a member of the VNV, I object to your characterisation of myself and my fellow union members as greedy and malicious. I also feel that your grievances and threats of industrial action are inappropriate considering that the negotiations between KLM and the VNV over the amalgamation of the KLC and KLMuk flight operations have not even begun. No one has tried to screw you and in my opinion no one will. In your post, I believe that you were trying to quote from a newsletter that the VNV bestuur (board of directors) sent to it’s members. I believe that this is a more complete English translation of the relevant section:
“In KLM’s view, regional operations are performed by KLC and KLM uk. These both have recently been placed under the supervision of one person. KLM would like to see that the role and production capabilities of KLMuk, which are currently limited by the agreement on code-share production, be expanded. In order to realise the structure that KLM has in mind, a number of changes are necessary which would need to be negotiated with the VNV. The aircraft types which KLMuk fly would have to be included in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, a solution would have to be found for the KLMuk pilots, and the codeshare agreement would have to be adjusted to reflect the new situation. The board of directors (of the VNV) has informed KLM that they should be able to live with the change in structure (of regional operations). It means, after all, an expansion of employment. The consequences for our employment conditions would, however, need to be arranged satisfactorily. The introduction of the F100 can only occur, in the opinion of the board of directors (of the VNV), in a combined KLM-KLC protocol for career advancement and salary structure, and that the solution decided for the KLMuk pilots must in no way cause adjustments to the KLM senority list. Although KLM has in the past blocked attempts to combine the KLM and KLC career advancement protocol and salary structure rules, they are now prepared to discuss this with the VNV on this basis.
A seemingly small yet very important point is “that the solution decided for the KLMuk pilots must in no way cause adjustments to the KLM senority list.” It does not say KLM-KLC senority list, as you have indicated. What they mean is that as far as the KLM aircraft are concerned, B737 and above, it would only be acceptable to the VNV for any KLMuk pilots who would become eligible to fly those aircraft due to a merger, would do so after all the KLM and KLC pilots who are already in line. This is only fair. Being added to the bottom of the KLM list would only be an improvement to a KLMuk pilot’s career prospects, as some of the younger ones could, eventually, become 747 captains. Obviously everyone is going to be able to keep their current position and salary, and I’m sure that the negotiators will strive to make sure that the first officers time-to-command on the regional aircraft remains in line with what it currently is. KLC will insist on it anyway in order to keep training costs down. The biggest disadvantage for KLMuk pilots, as I see it, is that KLC will probably eventually want to base everyone in Amsterdam. I’m also sure, however, that you will be given the option of working for an independent Buzz, if you would prefer, which is going to become a very large airline on it’s own, because of KLM’s money and at the expense of further expansion of the “blue” network.
I would ask you to please refrain from overreacting to gossip and speculation and wait to hear what has been offered to you before denouncing the VNV. The VNV represents not only KLM pilots but also KLC pilots, including any new ones coming in from KLMuk. Also keep in mind that the VNV will in all likelihood hold more negotiations with BALPA sometime in the future, and at that time from a point of disadvantage. Senority mergers are never easy, but I’m sure that we can come to an agreement that will be equally unacceptable for all those concerned.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Holland
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes I cannot believe how an educated person can come up with a statement as made by Long Haul... I think this kind of nonsense is exactly the reason why I hate the VNV..
quote:
What they mean is that as far as the KLM aircraft are concerned, B737 and above, it would only be acceptable to the VNV for any KLMuk pilots who would become eligible to fly those aircraft due to a merger, would do so after all the KLM and KLC pilots who are already in line. This is only fair. Being added to the bottom of the KLM list would only be an improvement to a KLMuk pilot’s career prospects, as some of the younger ones could, eventually, become 747 captains.
If I understand it correctly a KL UK 73 driver only become a mainline 73 driver if, but only if all mainline and KL guys have moved in front of them. We are talking about guys (and gals) who have been at the company for decades... Shame on you Long Haul.
The final insult is that yes if you join now you could become one of the few lucky ones in 30 years time... to fly the 74..
quote:
What they mean is that as far as the KLM aircraft are concerned, B737 and above, it would only be acceptable to the VNV for any KLMuk pilots who would become eligible to fly those aircraft due to a merger, would do so after all the KLM and KLC pilots who are already in line. This is only fair. Being added to the bottom of the KLM list would only be an improvement to a KLMuk pilot’s career prospects, as some of the younger ones could, eventually, become 747 captains.
If I understand it correctly a KL UK 73 driver only become a mainline 73 driver if, but only if all mainline and KL guys have moved in front of them. We are talking about guys (and gals) who have been at the company for decades... Shame on you Long Haul.
The final insult is that yes if you join now you could become one of the few lucky ones in 30 years time... to fly the 74..
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buzzboy, looks like we’ll shortly start to repeat ourselves on a topic that we hashed over a month back. That time the subject title was: “If I was the boss of KLM …..”. I am fairly senior at KLM having over 2/3 of the pilots below me. But I watch the developments with great interest. I understand your point of view. But if you read the whole thread I tried to give a bit of background on the tough position that the VNV finds itself, no need to feel sorry. Our seniority list was opened back about six years ago to accommodate our colleagues at KLC (although a large group was unhappy at KLC as well), first and only time in 83 years. This will not happen again for the simple reason that the VNV will disintegrate, it knows this. I think in the previous topic “If I was…” we did come up with a solution that would get my support but taking your seniority to KLM is a nonstarter; you wouldn’t let me take your seat I am sure. An integrated list for KLMuk/KLC is more then possible, and bottom of the list for KLM/C mainline list. The Fokker 100 will need an adjustment because even KLM has a scope clause with the VNV (a very liberal 100 seat design limit). But I can see this becoming a bargaining chip (freezing the fleet, maybe) if an arrangement can be made on other outstanding issues. As far as KLMuk and Buzz something along the lines of BA and GO might happen, where you make the crew dedicated and belonging to a different list. But you know much better then me how that worked. Hope we can come to an accommodation but I very much doubt it. Seniority is the topic from HELL.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: york
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Longhaul:
you know as well as I that KLM/KLC has a SINGLE seniority list, so you are telling me that our most senior captain with over 30 years service will be junior to your most junior KLC f/o and that this is fair?????? GET REAL!!
That means that our F/Os will many years service will have to wait until all current KLC f/os have had their commands, well we will fight this to the last!!
Just remember, you are setting rules for the future here and if BA comes along and takes over KLM i hope you are put to the bottom of their list!! behind 6000 odd other pilots, because you said it! "this is only fair"
A seemingly small yet very important point is “that the solution decided for the KLMuk pilots must in no way cause adjustments to the KLM senority list.” It does not say KLM-KLC senority list, as you have indicated. What they mean is that as far as the KLM aircraft are concerned, B737 and above, it would only be acceptable to the VNV for any KLMuk pilots who would become eligible to fly those aircraft due to a merger, would do so after all the KLM and KLC pilots who are already in line. This is only fair.
That means that our F/Os will many years service will have to wait until all current KLC f/os have had their commands, well we will fight this to the last!!
Just remember, you are setting rules for the future here and if BA comes along and takes over KLM i hope you are put to the bottom of their list!! behind 6000 odd other pilots, because you said it! "this is only fair"
Last edited by buzz boy; 19th Apr 2002 at 20:53.
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: U.K.
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Otterman I dont believe there can be an easy integration of the klmUK and KLC seniority list. With the rights of transfer to mainline the most senior guy at KLC must only have 8 - 10 years in. At klmUK there are F/O's more senior than that. The top guy at klmUK has over 30 years in.
The VNV seem more interested in finding something for their cruise pilots to fly, sorry land. All I can say is those guys knew the score when they joined KLM.
Looks like we crossed Buzzboy
The VNV seem more interested in finding something for their cruise pilots to fly, sorry land. All I can say is those guys knew the score when they joined KLM.
Looks like we crossed Buzzboy
Last edited by Imhotep; 19th Apr 2002 at 21:09.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: york
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry i forgot to add Longhaul;
the VNV does NOT represent the KLMuk pilots who will be joining KLM as you will not even allow us to join the union at present, that says it all i think.
the VNV does NOT represent the KLMuk pilots who will be joining KLM as you will not even allow us to join the union at present, that says it all i think.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to read all this guys. It has remarkable overtones of the attitude of BA and mainline BALPA to us in BACE. For a comparison of patronising attitudes and short sighted attempts at self protection, compare our thread about BA, EOG and the RJ100. When Rod merges with KLM, this is going to cause an interesting little scenario - I think Danny will need a new server again, and the employment lawyers will make a fortune.
Management must really be laughing in the HR department.
Good luck to KLMuk anyway, don't rely onBA or BALPA when the time comes.
Management must really be laughing in the HR department.
Good luck to KLMuk anyway, don't rely onBA or BALPA when the time comes.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Down Under
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fantasy and Facts !
A few corrections from 'long hauls' fantasies.
Fantasy : "No one has tried to screw you and in my opinion no one will"
Fact : Most KLC careers are severly limited by VNV (read KLM) imposed restrictions eg. The Fokker 100 went to junior KLM pilots for initial commands. KLC limited to F28 and later F70.
Fantasy : "Although the KLC pilots were added to the KLM senority list in 1997"
Fact : 'Long Haul' just forgot to mention the small point that a significant number of them would lose half there seniority in the move !
Fantasy : "it is still not possible for KLM cruise relief pilots, some of whom have been out of school for five years and still not flown, to bid onto the KLC aircraft"
Fact : The VNV (read KLM) would not consider Fokker 50 in this negotiation.... Only Jet aircraft for KLMers, nothing lower than that ! In doing so they eliminated one of the best learning cycles of their lives. (My opinion ; The first few years "out of school" should be on this type of operation! = maturity & experience)
And so it goes !
Keep these things in mind buzz boy and good luck !
Fantasy : "No one has tried to screw you and in my opinion no one will"
Fact : Most KLC careers are severly limited by VNV (read KLM) imposed restrictions eg. The Fokker 100 went to junior KLM pilots for initial commands. KLC limited to F28 and later F70.
Fantasy : "Although the KLC pilots were added to the KLM senority list in 1997"
Fact : 'Long Haul' just forgot to mention the small point that a significant number of them would lose half there seniority in the move !
Fantasy : "it is still not possible for KLM cruise relief pilots, some of whom have been out of school for five years and still not flown, to bid onto the KLC aircraft"
Fact : The VNV (read KLM) would not consider Fokker 50 in this negotiation.... Only Jet aircraft for KLMers, nothing lower than that ! In doing so they eliminated one of the best learning cycles of their lives. (My opinion ; The first few years "out of school" should be on this type of operation! = maturity & experience)
And so it goes !
Keep these things in mind buzz boy and good luck !
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
buzz boy,
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Your most senior captain with over 30 years service should be given the option to fly for Buzz or for KLC. Should he or she choose KLC, they should be a F100 captain, which is the largest type that KLC will operate.
A current KLMuk F50 F/O with 3 years service who chooses KLC should upgrade to captain F50, or F/O F100, or captain F100 at about the same time as a current KLC pilot also with 3 years service. I am thus in favor of date-of-hire integration of KLMuk pilots - onto the KLC fleet.
What I would find unacceptable is if your most senior captain with 30 years of service all of a sudden next month became a B747 captain before a KLM mainline pilot with 29 years service. After all, KLMuk is not bringing any widebody aircraft to the merger. KLMuk is and has been a regional airline, so any possibility at all of progressing above the level of regional aircraft is a bonus.
you know as well as I that KLM/KLC has a SINGLE seniority list, so you are telling me that our most senior captain with over 30 years service will be junior to your most junior KLC f/o and that this is fair?????? GET REAL!! That means that our F/Os will many years service will have to wait until all current KLC f/os have had their commands, well we will fight this to the last!!
A current KLMuk F50 F/O with 3 years service who chooses KLC should upgrade to captain F50, or F/O F100, or captain F100 at about the same time as a current KLC pilot also with 3 years service. I am thus in favor of date-of-hire integration of KLMuk pilots - onto the KLC fleet.
What I would find unacceptable is if your most senior captain with 30 years of service all of a sudden next month became a B747 captain before a KLM mainline pilot with 29 years service. After all, KLMuk is not bringing any widebody aircraft to the merger. KLMuk is and has been a regional airline, so any possibility at all of progressing above the level of regional aircraft is a bonus.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: york
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Longhaul;
then thats fine, KLM keep ther A/C and cruise pilots and KLC/KLMuk keep their fleets and THEIR OWN Seniority, you cant have your cake and eat it my friend, if you want transfer rights back down for your cruise pilots then equal date of joining seniority for all, otherwise HANDS OFF!
Also KLM are removing the KLMuk blue pilots from Buzz with NO transfer rights back, so the Buzz option does not exist for those guys who fly the F100 or the F50.
Also in 1997 7 of our 737s were transfered to KLM with no rights for the AirUK guys to continue flying them, something to do with the scope clause, as a result over time our pilot force has been reduced from 450 to 350, 100 lost jobs!! but more jobs for KLM, after sept 11th we lost 3 more a/c with rusultant pilot job losses, enough is enough!!
then thats fine, KLM keep ther A/C and cruise pilots and KLC/KLMuk keep their fleets and THEIR OWN Seniority, you cant have your cake and eat it my friend, if you want transfer rights back down for your cruise pilots then equal date of joining seniority for all, otherwise HANDS OFF!
Also KLM are removing the KLMuk blue pilots from Buzz with NO transfer rights back, so the Buzz option does not exist for those guys who fly the F100 or the F50.
Also in 1997 7 of our 737s were transfered to KLM with no rights for the AirUK guys to continue flying them, something to do with the scope clause, as a result over time our pilot force has been reduced from 450 to 350, 100 lost jobs!! but more jobs for KLM, after sept 11th we lost 3 more a/c with rusultant pilot job losses, enough is enough!!
Last edited by buzz boy; 20th Apr 2002 at 10:36.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: London, England
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an outsider the fairest way to integrate a seniority list is by original date of joining.
Some from each grouping will win, some will loose.
Whilst we are on the subject of seniority lists, personally I think that their existance is a pilots own goal, as they restrict freedom of movement and hence employers incentive to improve terms and conditions to attract the best.
Lets face it once you are a reasonably senior Captain, there is very little incentive to move if you have to start again at the bottom. Is this not the real reason for the argument above?
Some from each grouping will win, some will loose.
Whilst we are on the subject of seniority lists, personally I think that their existance is a pilots own goal, as they restrict freedom of movement and hence employers incentive to improve terms and conditions to attract the best.
Lets face it once you are a reasonably senior Captain, there is very little incentive to move if you have to start again at the bottom. Is this not the real reason for the argument above?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BigRab,
I would agree with you that date-of-hire is the best way to merge senority lists, but only with respect to companies which are approxiamately the same size. An important reason for the existence of senority lists in aviation is for safety's sake. Without senority an airline would, due to financial considerations, quickly become motivated to advance the careers of those pilots who carried the least amount of fuel, who tried to carry on to the destination at all cost, and who didn't mind operating aircraft which were questionably airworthy. Don't get me wrong, most airlines have scruples; it's just that the senority system greatly relieves airline captains of commercial considerations and allows them to concentrate on their main objective, safety.
buzz boy,
I would vote against any deal in which KLMuk pilots were not given the right to choose with which company to continue their careers. Since the negotiations have not yet begun, it is too early for you to say that that will not happen. One of the options open to the negotiators is exactly what you suggest; keeping a separate senority list for the ex-KLMuk pilots and ex-KLMuk airplanes. But in that case your copilots will not get the opportunity to fill vacancies on the current KLC aircraft as they become available when pilots leave to join KLM mainline. Nor will they ever get to join KLM mainline themselves. Do you really speak for all your colleagues (especially the younger ones) when you say that you don't want that?
I would agree with you that date-of-hire is the best way to merge senority lists, but only with respect to companies which are approxiamately the same size. An important reason for the existence of senority lists in aviation is for safety's sake. Without senority an airline would, due to financial considerations, quickly become motivated to advance the careers of those pilots who carried the least amount of fuel, who tried to carry on to the destination at all cost, and who didn't mind operating aircraft which were questionably airworthy. Don't get me wrong, most airlines have scruples; it's just that the senority system greatly relieves airline captains of commercial considerations and allows them to concentrate on their main objective, safety.
buzz boy,
I would vote against any deal in which KLMuk pilots were not given the right to choose with which company to continue their careers. Since the negotiations have not yet begun, it is too early for you to say that that will not happen. One of the options open to the negotiators is exactly what you suggest; keeping a separate senority list for the ex-KLMuk pilots and ex-KLMuk airplanes. But in that case your copilots will not get the opportunity to fill vacancies on the current KLC aircraft as they become available when pilots leave to join KLM mainline. Nor will they ever get to join KLM mainline themselves. Do you really speak for all your colleagues (especially the younger ones) when you say that you don't want that?
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Holland
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long Haul are you real or just a wind up
Absolutely nonsense, basically you are saying your dear collegues in other airlines are unsafe bastards who fight to keep on flying in unsafe aircraft... Yes there is the risk that such would happen in a small mom and pap operation. But in larger airlines there are plenty of opt outs like wispering something to the local CAA. And if they are not up to it (MAS for instance a beautiful KL partner who arrived a few times on fumes at LHR) you can still us the CAA in other countries or the press. The funny thing is that it cost more to the airline if it becomes public knowledge that they operate unsafe than stimulating pilots to go on and 99% of airline managemnet knows this.
You have just played the VNV joker, everytime you guys don't get your way you always go out to the press and come with a statement like: we do not understand why xxx is not agreeing with us because this a safety issue... John Doe reading the newspaper and still full of awe for everything flying will pick it up and worse off all believe you. Losing another would be passenger and hurting the industry because of your childish behaviour..
We are however very pleased that somebody labouring for 30 years at KL UK will get the right to quote: ..choose.. where to work , but hey sorry you will lose the right to your seniority on the way.. and mainline is off limits.. because your company did not bring any widebodies... Has the idea crossed your mind that KL UK is your company too...
Without senority an airline would, due to financial considerations, quickly become motivated to advance the careers of those pilots who carried the least amount of fuel, who tried to carry on to the destination at all cost, and who didn't mind operating aircraft which were questionably airworthy. Don't get me wrong, most airlines have scruples; it's just that the senority system greatly relieves airline captains of commercial considerations and allows them to concentrate on their main objective, safety.
You have just played the VNV joker, everytime you guys don't get your way you always go out to the press and come with a statement like: we do not understand why xxx is not agreeing with us because this a safety issue... John Doe reading the newspaper and still full of awe for everything flying will pick it up and worse off all believe you. Losing another would be passenger and hurting the industry because of your childish behaviour..
We are however very pleased that somebody labouring for 30 years at KL UK will get the right to quote: ..choose.. where to work , but hey sorry you will lose the right to your seniority on the way.. and mainline is off limits.. because your company did not bring any widebodies... Has the idea crossed your mind that KL UK is your company too...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dutchie, I thought what Long Haul wrote was on the mark. Don’t know what industry you have been working in the last few years, but seniority is all we have. KLMuk isn’t the same company from an employee perspective (everything related to our work is different, but only the owner is the same), that is what the discussion is about right now. There was an existing integration model for KLM mainline and KLC pilots before the merger of the seniority lists. This was modified in some crucial details and was sold to the KLM mainline pilots as acting in the spirit of the original integration model. Left the junior KLM pilots pissed off and a good chunk of the KLC pilots as well. KLM and KLMuk have nothing at the moment that allows pilots from KLMuk to transfer over. I don’t know of any major western airline that does not operate under the seniority system. So I don’t know whom you are referring to when you accuse long haul of making all sorts of accusations about other airlines being unsafe. In the States and Canada there are no models for integrating feeder/regional airline pilots (even the ones which are owned) into the mainline list. They might get hiring preference but certainly join at the bottom of the list. Enlighten me if I am wrong. There is no upsides for us KLM mainline pilots in a pilot merger with KLMuk. Wasn’t with KLC either, but the VNV decided in its wisdom that they didn’t want KLM to be able to use the divide and conquer tactic in the future between the two pilot groups. All my valued colleagues at all the airlines that KLM owns a share in can keep what you have, but any transfer to mainline aircraft will happen from the bottom of the list. Our issue with second officers is something that will take care of itself in the next few years.
Start out by creating a list for the regional partners recognizing their full seniority, and then add the regional pilots who are not already on the mainline list to the bottom in order of seniority. You lose nothing and gain the potential of moving up in the future, for whatever that is worth to a senior pilot. Otherwise, if you want to fly for a major apply at one. But hell will freeze over before regional crews take away anything from present day KLM mainline pilots on the seniority front. Hope I was clear enough.
Start out by creating a list for the regional partners recognizing their full seniority, and then add the regional pilots who are not already on the mainline list to the bottom in order of seniority. You lose nothing and gain the potential of moving up in the future, for whatever that is worth to a senior pilot. Otherwise, if you want to fly for a major apply at one. But hell will freeze over before regional crews take away anything from present day KLM mainline pilots on the seniority front. Hope I was clear enough.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: -11`
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wholehartedly agree, Otterman.
And as to the argument stated before, that we should be grateful that the UK pilots are kind enough to bring all the pax to fill the KLM longhaul fleet: You don`t think the fact these pax want to fly longhaul from AMS has anything to do with your full aircraft, do you? Without KLM longhaul attracting all those pax from regional Britain, your little operation wouldn`t be doing all that great, now would it? Works both ways, as always.
And as to the argument stated before, that we should be grateful that the UK pilots are kind enough to bring all the pax to fill the KLM longhaul fleet: You don`t think the fact these pax want to fly longhaul from AMS has anything to do with your full aircraft, do you? Without KLM longhaul attracting all those pax from regional Britain, your little operation wouldn`t be doing all that great, now would it? Works both ways, as always.