KLMuk trouble at mill!!

[ooizcalling]

Sunning yourself in Hoofddorp ???? Dam It ! Missed Summer again !!!

Seniority may be the 'least worst system' but it is 'a system' and NOT 'a religion', and any thought of addressing it's shortcommings should not be treated as heresy!

[captain codpiece]

merged seniority lists

Buzz Boy Just a quick comparison for you.A very similar thing has recently happened with CFE and BA.All CFE pilots (some who have been in for all of CFE existence) where placed at the bottom of the BA master seniority list.BALPA, of course,where representing both sides.To get an idea of the full impact of this you should monitor the move of the RJ's to MAN & BHX without the pilots.The pilots will move to other BA mainline fleets where their seat position will be determined by seniority (which is zilch!).This is probably not very comforting for you.Something I would point out is that the union use the career opportunity arguement i.e."you might get to fly a 747" if your a good boy, which makes most people think they don't understand the career advancement issue.However,merged seniority lists don't seem to happen nowadays probably because in the BUZZ/KLM case one pilot workforce is far larger than the other and carries much greater force.No-one is willing to let their career stall in any way for what is very justifiable but would affect them directly and it would seen very much by the mainline crew'sthat you are actually joining their company.Good luck.

[buzz boy]

Captain Codpiece;

Were the Cityflyer pilots not merged into the BA EOG seniority list at gatwick on a year on year basis? then placed on the bottom of the main line list? If so what is going to be replacing the RJ100s? wont you get a type change at base agreement?

Hope it all works out for you, i think BALPA are actually working quite hard on our behalf, as INHOTEP said earlier we are not interested in KLMs precious mainline aircraft, we basicly want to protect what we have, as we know that KLM mainline have their greedy eyes on the F100 but want to give nothing in return.

As said earlier if we want to fly longhaul most would go to BA or Virgin, in my experience the KLM people are a nightmare to work with, very blinkered and inflexable, as famously said "its shnot posssible sir"!!!

[Otterman]

As a foreigner in Holland I think I can be a bit more objective on the subject of how it is to work with KLM and its people. I have been doing it for close to fifteen years now. You lack this knowledge and it is becoming clear you don’t really have a clue what you are talking about in regards to this seniority issue either. Sure KLM has its way of doing things. No better or worse then other airlines. Sure it is burdened by an 83-year history. Management is the same throughout our industry, won’t find many fans of them among us. But in a cockpit setting I have nothing but praise for the way KLM works. We have a very flat authority gradient. A good CRM practice, and good training. I have found throughout my career that the people have been generous and appreciative of my input in the cockpit. Co-pilots are fully integrated into the operation doing everything the Captain does from starting engines to taxiing and take-off and landing. Not many airlines can claim this. My young colleagues straight out of the training academy have proven themselves to me many times over. Sure there are shysters about at KLM, but name me a company where that isn’t the case, KLMuk?

KLM management has decided that it needs to consolidate its operations, it is their right, they own them. If and when KLMuk and KLC are merged it changes things from the present situation. The Fokker 100 is a problem. KLC is scoped to 100 seats. KLM mainline isn’t eying the Fokker 100’s; they are a breach to the scope that we have in place. It will have to be dealt with. And that doesn't automatically mean that you lose them, lets see what happens.

The reason that no KLMuk pilot (that I know of) has transferred to KLM also has something to do with the language barrier. Living in England and commuting on KLM or KLMuk is something that a number of my colleagues do, maybe you have even met them. So that shouldn’t be the show stopper. But KLM likes (used to be a requirement) its pilots to be able to speak Dutch; most Brits I know don’t speak another language but their own. KLC didn’t have this requirement. With a merged list this would be a gain for KLMuk pilots who are interested in the lifestyle that KLM mainline brings with it. I am sure for you BA or Virgin are a much better fit since you don’t like the Dutch. I would say go for it.

[JW411]

Otterman:

"Co-pilots are fully integrated into the operation doing everything the Captain does from starting engines to taxiing and take-off and landing. Not many airlines can claim this".

What a load of bo**ocks! I have never in my long flying career worked for an organisation that didn't have a "leg and leg about" policy. Only in very exceptional circumstances would I ever take a F/O's leg. Even then, I would make sure that he got one of mine in compensation.

Otherwise, how the hell do you expect them to learn? Would it not be awful to be incapacitated in the left seat when the F/O is having to do it for the first time? That would be guaranteed to finish you off!

I apologise for being a bit off topic but I could not let Otterman get away with trying to make us think that KLM are particularly enlightened. (If I were in KLMUk I think I would rather find another job rather than try to join this archaic mess). Can you just imagine the erruptions if Ozboy really tries to merge BA with KLM? Certainly, Danny would need another server!

[buzz boy]

Yawn!!

At KLMuk we have the same policy of leg and leg about, on his leg f/o starts engines, taxi, same limits as a captain for x winds approach limits etc. In fact it is in the ops manual that f/os are trained to the same standard of captains.

so there!!

Its like going back to the seventies at SPL with KLM, 10 men to do one persons job on the ground, people always late for things like airbiridges, its NEVER their fault always someone elses, appauling catering, old fasioned unionised attitudes, as i said before "its just not posssible sir!!"

[Otterman]

JW411, what is it with you folks? It’s like somebody *****d in your cornflakes or something. I apparently wasn’t clear about what I wrote. And you are reading things into my posts which aren’t there. What is the deal with all the animosity against KLM by the way?

When it is the co-pilots leg he does it all. He starts the engines, taxies the aircraft out to the runway, and is hands on throttle during the take-off run. There are no x-wind restriction after one year on type and an additional sim. session. He/She taxies the aircraft onto the gate and shuts her down. This applies for all types except the MD-11 which does not come with a tiller on the right. I have been around long enough to know that alternating legs is industry standard (and I was giving you enough smarts to figure you could read that into it, sorry my mistake), but there are many airlines out there where the co-pilot does not do the engine start-up or taxi the aircraft. Certainly there are more airlines then not in which the first officer does not have his hands on the throttle during the take off run. So chill out man, all I am trying to say is that KLM is a great outfit to work for, where you are a full part of the operation whether you are in the right or left seat. And having people saying things about us that just are plain false should be put right.

If KLMuk has the same policy, good for you. As far as KLM being an archaic mess, what do you base that on? What is your knowledge about KLM, and how do you figure it differs from other majors, where is the utopia? You say you have been around the business for a long time flying for many different organizations. Why is that, couldn’t settle down or you just didn’t fit into a large organization? I can’t understand why standing up for my job, career is arrogant. Nobody is forcing anyone to fly for KLM, if is it such a **** organization go somewhere else.

Our ground organization at Schiphol can of course be improved and it never goes the way we would like it to go. But at what hub or airline do things go smoothly all of the time?

We are way off topic, but I want to tell you guys that I like working for KLM and I have a deep appreciation for my fellow employees in the cockpit and cabin. Nuff said.

[buzz boy]

WOW hit a raw nerve Otterman???

I havent said i have been around the airlines, dont know where u got that from, and my experience is based on 7 years flying in and out of AMS being mis handled by KLM, i cannot and havent commented on your flight deck procedures.

As for not wanting to be part of KLM well you got that right!! we DID NOT choose to be taken over by them, they have wrecked a bloody good airline in AirUK, and now wish to turn our lives upside down again, except this time we do not intend to be S**T on like in the past

[Otterman]

Hey Buzz Boy, that was direct to JW411, is it my english? Hitting a nerve, sure. I have a low Bull**** tolerance. Living in the past is not getting you places. The future is here. Try to find an accomodation with it.

[Long Haul]

I began taking part in this discussion hopeful for a solution which would have been acceptable for both the KLMuk pilots and KLC pilots, however, after having been subject to this kind of abuse I now hope that any KLMuk pilot wishing to stay on at KLC be forced to reapply to Schiphol-Oost to keep their job. All of you out there who think that KLMuk was this great airline ruined by the mean old blue boys are nuts; I worked for a commuter airline for five years and I can tell you that flying for a real airline is better paying, more fun, gives more time off, and is a lot more challenging and rewarding. And the girls are much better looking.

[ooizcalling]

Hey Otterman, your view of KLM .... is that of a pilot recruited directly into KLM or via cityhopper.... There is a world of difference !

The Direct entry KLM pilot should be very pleased with his job, and his career prospects etc etc. The operational differences are not a point of debate, eg I could say that a 'very flat authority gradient' can be just as bad as a steep authority gradient and we could go on about that, but that is not the point of the initial post that started this thread.

Ask a cityhopper pilot what he thinks of his KLM colleagues as represented by the VNV and you'll get a different story. Whilst being 100% KLM pilots (same contract as you), their careers are TOTALLY controlled by limitations imposed by their mainline KLM colleagues, they dont/didn't have a say in it ! Well yes they did, but with about 150 KLM cityhopper pilots verses 1,500 KLM mainline pilots, a vote was a mere technicality that allows the Mainline group to hide behind a facade which they call democracy ! You could have 90% of the mainline group not vote and the proposal would still pass... that's not democracy.

So, Instead of just limiting the cityhopper operation to prevent it encroaching on what you see as mainline operations (which could be seen as a reasonable attitude) you also limited the pilots within cityhopper to stay within that division, and up to recently, never to move on in their career with their company KLM. Instead you mainline KLM pilots keep all the movement for yourselves. Totally unjustifiable !

This sort of treatment is what the KLmuk crews are aware of and not prepared to accept. In that they have my full support.

Did you know that within Holland but from outside KLM the VNV is known as the KLM pilots club, and even within the single aisle KLM divisions it's known as the 'four hundred fliers club'

Many a true word said in jest !

[buzz boy]

Longhaul:

How dare you!!

A: u have NO IDEA about KLMuk and the people who work for it.

B: we have more days off than cityhopper pilots and will not give that up

C: we are paid better than cityhopper pilots and will not take a pay cut

D: come into the crew centre and tell the KLMuk cabin crew that yours are better looking

get a life and keep your bloody airline, if you are the kind of guy that i would have to fly with i would rather work at my local store

T**ser

[Long Haul]

If they are in the crew centre they know, trust me. Besides, I wouldn't want to meet one of them later in a dark alley.

[JW411]

Otterman:

I was merely picking up on your claim that "Not many airlines can claim this". I still maintain that this statement is a load of old bo**ocks.

You also wonder why I have worked for several airlines in the past. Has it ever occurred to you that the list of airlines that are not state-owned or state-protected that have gone bust is endless. In no case that I can remember was the collapse of an independent airline caused by the pilots.

On second thoughts, having been in KLM for so long, it is very unlikely that you have any idea what life is like outside in the real world. I just hope for your sake that your bubble doesn't burst
like it did for lots of folk in SABENA.

[Heavy Landing]

There are a lot of other pilots who work for KLMuk apart from Buzzboy, and we certainly dont all share his dogmatic views (notice the absence of any other significant posts from KLMuk pilots on this thread)

Most of us are keeping an open mind until we have something tangible to work with. Buzzboy and his like are part of a very vocal minority faction in the company who have decreed that 'there is nothing, and there can never be anything, for us in this proposed merger'...........even before the terms of the merger are known!!!

The majority of pilots at KLMuk know that the merge CAN be successful, but that depends on how fair the deal that is finally thrashed out is to KLM, KLC and KLMuk pilots. The sooner KLM, VNV and BALPA come clean about their intentions, the sooner we can have meaningful discussions. Rumour and hearsay only lead to speculation, and eventually to crass, xenophobic comments of the type that have been flying about from Buzzboy amongst others.

If Longhauls views are fairly representative of the VNV's, the gulf is not as wide as it might seem. the fact is that most KLMuk pilots are not interested in KLM mainline flying, and as such would have no problem at all in going in at the bottom of the KLM Mainline list. It is the merger with the KLC list that is the main issue, and if that can be done on a year of joining basis, not many people can argue that that is unfair. KLC originating pilots keep their route into mainline along with the ability to bid for aircraft in a much bigger KLC/KLMuk fleet. Likewise, KLMuk pilots gain a much wider bid range within the combined group, and those that want mainline will get a shot at it in due course, accepting that all current KLC pilots were in the queue before us.

If our F100's or the merger itself are used as a bargaining tool by KLM or VNV, e.g. allowing mainline pilots to bid down into the KLC/KLMuk fleets, at the expense of KLMuk pilots who wouldnt have immediate access to mainline equipment, then that is plainly unfair. This is where KLM and VNV need to promptly show their hand to put all suspicion to an end.

Our other gripes do not concern VNV at all. they are issues for us at KLMuk to resolve directly with management. Pensions and rights of transfer etc are wholly within BALPA's control.

[driver1]

there has been alot discussed on this thread!

I have to agree with Heavy Landing, Buzz Boy does have some good points but doesnt represent all of the pilots at KLMuk.

It has to be said though that it appears through his posts that Longhaul my be vocal in the VNV and if he continues with that attitude it will be nothing but destructive.

Otterman; i do understand your concerns about your seniority, with the many years to command within KLM this is quite understandable. As Heavy Landing says there is alot to be discussed and it would help if the VNV made their intentions clear. I for one favour the idea of a seperate "regional" division list that joins all the KLMuk / Buzz pilots and the existing KLC pilots by date of joining. Then all KLMuk / Buzz pilots are put on the bottom of the master list. This i think protects everyone and is the fairest deal, it allows the existing KLMuk pilot to bid to Buzz or mainline should he so desire, once that choice is made then there is no return, the Buzz pilots can bid vice versa, all existing KLC pilots retain their places on the master list so no KLMuk/Buzz pilot can fly mainline before them.

As to the F100s, well they have been flying the feeder routes for many years now under the KLMuk "regional" banner, i dont think that there could be a reasonable argument from the mainline pilots over their use in the new combined KLC/KLMuk airline, that really would be splitting hairs and cause very bad feeling from the British pilots.

Longhaul, you may consider yourself superior or stronger in your current position, please do not abuse this as it will turn around and bite you in the future, also to make the kind of remarks you have about our cabin crew is very offensive and has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, remember just because you work for a different airline doesnt make you any different, we are all human, have our hopes and dreams and sometimes those dreams have to be modified. Same appies to Buzz Boy.

Lets look to a bright future within the KLM group for all.

[Long Haul]

Heavy Landing,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion which has calmed me down a bit. I take back what I wrote about you and the other reasonable KLMuk pilots having to reapply to keep their jobs; what we all want is a company where KLC and ex-KLMuk pilots can work together in harmony.
It is true that the VNV is going to use the integration of the KLMuk aircraft into the KLC fleet to try to get it so that current KLM mainline pilots can bid KLC positions. If they don't, as otterman wrote, the union will disintegrate due to the currently very unhappy KLM cruise relief pilots who have seen KLC pilots stream in ahead of them onto the mainline fleet while new-hires come in to fill the first officer vacancies left behind. Although this seems at first to be a setback for you and your colleagues, keep in mind that the new KLC fleet would be twice as large as it is now, with more than twice as many people leaving; instead of only having captaincies become available due to retirements, you would now also have young captains leaving to join KLM mainline. You would also benefit from the fact that KLC can expand their routes in all directions while there are only so many more flights that KLMuk would have added in the coming years between the UK and AMS. Add to that all the many pilots who would, under my scenario, opt to work for Buzz, and the benefit of being on the KLM mainline senority list for the ohh so very few among you who would like that, and I personally don't think that it would be a bad deal for you. What really needs to happen though is for representatives of the VNV and of BALPA to sit down, work the numbers out, and to come up with a solution together. If, at the end of all this, it turns out that you lot are taken advantage of by the VNV then I will apologise here; but for the time being I can assure you that the bestuur of the VNV are wise, reasonable men who understand the problems and emotions involved in this difficult undertaking.

[driver1]

Longhaul;

Although there may be some concerns from the KLM cruise pilots about gaining experience with flying you cannot justify them stepping on existing pilots within KLMuk and KLC, we have turboprop first officers waiting for their jet positions which represent a significat pay rise for them, equally we have turboprop captains and senior jet first officers who have been waiting a long time some up to 9 years for their jet commands, this also represents a significant pay rise.

If as you have stated you wish the KLMuk pilots to be placed onto the bottom of the master list then you cant have it both ways and start taking other peoples dreams from them. If the cruise pilots wish to gain experience with a regional airline then they should be allowed to join the Regional seniority list at the bottom and start on the turboprop and gain very valuable experience from it. of course they can retain their master seniority for the future.

[Heavy Landing]

Long Haul, good to have you back. We need to be able to all discuss this calmly and reasonably.

Perhaps you could clear up the question of whether there is 1 or 2 seniority lists at KLM at the moment. We hear that there is only one list where KLM mainline and KLC pilots are combined, but then we know that there must be another list (real or theoretical) that would apply for example, if a command vacancy came up at KLC (seeing as KLM FO's and Coco's cannot bid down into KLC), i.e. a list composed only of KLC pilots who have not yet crossed over into mainline. This is very important to know before we get too far into how the seniority lists can be merged.

The chain you describe is exactly what most of us fear. The fairity of this chain can be tested by simply asking "who gains and loses what"?

KLM Mainline pilots gain the opportunity to take FO and Command positions on the combined KLC/KLMuk regional airline. They do not however have to give up anything in return because their KLM Mainline seniority position is protected.

KLC pilots gain is difficult to see, other than for F50 FO's looking for jet FO positions, within the combined regional, who now have more aircraft to bid for. What about a KLC FO who is just coming up to command, but who has no interest in Mainline? Suddenly all doors are shut in his or her face by all the experienced FO's bidding down from Mainline. The FO's who do want mainline gain nothing as they still have time and assesment constraints to bidding for mainline equipment.

So, for KLC pilots, the only marginal gain remains within KLC/KLMuk.

And for the KLMuk pilots, unless there is a separate "Regional" seniority list in existence to which we merge, or one is now created, we suffer more badly than our KLC colleagues. Our FO's coming up to command lose out in the same way as their KLC equivalents to Pilots bidding down from Mainline. Our FO's wanting mainline are subject to an even larger time constraint by the fact that we will be joining the KLM mainline list at the bottom of the last KLC pilot. Our existing Captains lose out if the fleet changes, because a more 'senior' FO from mainline can outbid them for any new regional aircraft, and so they face the prospect of a return to the RHS. And so on.

Hopefully, you can see from this, that the only outright winner in what you describe are the mainline FO's and Coco's. This is not the fairest solution possible, and that, I suspect is why even KLC pilots feel somewhat hard done by.

A fairer solution, in my humble opinion, would be this:

Have an overall KLM list, comprising all KLM Mainline pilots as existing, followed by all KLC pilots, and joined now, at the bottom by the KLMuk seniority list. This is the KLM main list.

In parallel, establish a "regional" list, that is comprised of all KLMuk and KLC pilots on a date of joining basis. Any mainline FO's and Coco's wishing "regional" positions can also join this list, but at the bottom, after all KLC and KLMuk pilots.

This is the starting point. we can now discuss what constraints etc apply to either list.

The experienced mainline Fo's who want regional positions get the opportunity, but only after all KLC/KLMuk pilots who are also suitably qualified and waiting for command. only fair.

The Mainline Coco's get regional FO positions, similarly without disadvantaging existing regional pilots.

If "You were the boss of KLM or the VNV", Longhaul, would you not then go one step further and do the exceptionally fair thing of then removing all artificial restraints on both lists? Like letting everyone bid for anything from day one? If that happened, then the chain would work to near perfection, and would offer opportunities to all

As experienced pilots stream from Mainline to take regional positions, so there would be a stream in the opposite direction, of KLC/KLMuk pilots taking mainline positions without having to wait 5 or 6 years just for the opportunity.

As Fo's stream to mainline, a path is opened for your Coco's to take FO positions at the regional.

Everybody wins. Those who dont want to migrate are protected by their seniority on the relevant list, and those who do, get the opportunity.

You'll note that I havent said anything about Buzz here. That is because whether we get rights of transfer to Buzz is really for negotiation between us and the KLMuk Management. It doesnt involve the Dutch pilots or the VNV.

[Heavy Landing]

driver1,

you beat me to it,.........and with fewer words too!