Helicopter Crash Central London
More bang for your buck
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for a live view along the river from Chelsea to the tower block this webcam is excellent, but it does scan quite a lot from East to West.
The building is to the right of the river and to the left of the suspension bridge tower.
The building is to the right of the river and to the left of the suspension bridge tower.
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Lots of interesting stuff here about how mobile phones work, but all misses the point whether its a good idea to be using the things while flying, in 
weather, over a city.
weather, over a city.
Reference picture of London's skyline.
For reference.
A view of London, just released, taken in 2012, using 49,000 images stitched together, taken from BT tower at the 29th floor level
The largest "Pano" ever made.
The building in question is in the frame, I think at the same height as at time of crash.
Gives a good idea of London's skyline.
The BT Tower
As a guide to the height of the 29th floor, the 36 and 37th floors are at 176 meters .
A view of London, just released, taken in 2012, using 49,000 images stitched together, taken from BT tower at the 29th floor level
The largest "Pano" ever made.
The building in question is in the frame, I think at the same height as at time of crash.
Gives a good idea of London's skyline.
The BT Tower
As a guide to the height of the 29th floor, the 36 and 37th floors are at 176 meters .
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That's a good find mickjoebill. To orientate people, swing the picture round until you're looking South, zoom in a bit and the tower is on the left of the screen.
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I don't much of what is said about how the messenger works on a phone is correct.
Someone said the network can tell when you start to compose an SMS message. I say they can't using regular SMS and if someone thinks they can, they better be able to prove it by citing a credible source. SMS uses the old GSM protocols for cellular broadcast systems. It simply doesn't send anything until you press the send button.
Now a phone manufacturer can put additional software into the phone so that it can detect log this and send it (e.g. via the internet connection) but if they did this it would be similar to the CarrierIQ privacy scandal and it would be all over the tech news (again).
Now IM (instant messaging) is of course a different kettle of fish and you'd expect the IM service to know when you start typing. However again there's no reason the phone provider would know unless they were one and the same, and in many cases they aren't.
In the case of blackberry messenger to blackberry messenger, sure blackberry have their software on the phone and on the server, they would be able to know IF they had appropriate logging systems on their servers (which they almost certainly do) but that's not an SMS message.
Someone said the network can tell when you start to compose an SMS message. I say they can't using regular SMS and if someone thinks they can, they better be able to prove it by citing a credible source. SMS uses the old GSM protocols for cellular broadcast systems. It simply doesn't send anything until you press the send button.
Now a phone manufacturer can put additional software into the phone so that it can detect log this and send it (e.g. via the internet connection) but if they did this it would be similar to the CarrierIQ privacy scandal and it would be all over the tech news (again).
Now IM (instant messaging) is of course a different kettle of fish and you'd expect the IM service to know when you start typing. However again there's no reason the phone provider would know unless they were one and the same, and in many cases they aren't.
In the case of blackberry messenger to blackberry messenger, sure blackberry have their software on the phone and on the server, they would be able to know IF they had appropriate logging systems on their servers (which they almost certainly do) but that's not an SMS message.
Someone said the network can tell when you start to compose an SMS message. I say they can't using regular SMS and if someone thinks they can, they better be able to prove it by citing a credible source. SMS uses the old GSM protocols for cellular broadcast systems. It simply doesn't send anything until you press the send button.
Now a phone manufacturer can put additional software into the phone so that it can detect log this and send it (e.g. via the internet connection) but if they did this it would be similar to the CarrierIQ privacy scandal and it would be all over the tech news (again).
Now IM (instant messaging) is of course a different kettle of fish and you'd expect the IM service to know when you start typing. However again there's no reason the phone provider would know unless they were one and the same, and in many cases they aren't.
Now a phone manufacturer can put additional software into the phone so that it can detect log this and send it (e.g. via the internet connection) but if they did this it would be similar to the CarrierIQ privacy scandal and it would be all over the tech news (again).
Now IM (instant messaging) is of course a different kettle of fish and you'd expect the IM service to know when you start typing. However again there's no reason the phone provider would know unless they were one and the same, and in many cases they aren't.
So, in summary:
a) there is no reference in what has been published to date (i.e. the AAIB's Special Bulletin) to anything other than regular SMS/text communication was being used
b) the network would have no knowledge of any SMS/text that had been composed by the pilot, in full or part, but not yet sent, in the period between the last text sent and the collision
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Those last 2 posts nearly had quite a substantial reply, however I think I can sum most of it in a question;
Do you really believe that the billionaire owner of the Ivy Restaurant, the Operator of Britains favourite boutique helicopter charter business, 'A.N. Other modern day pilot' and someone of Pete Barnes' calibre were sporting Nokia 3310's?
Do you really believe that the billionaire owner of the Ivy Restaurant, the Operator of Britains favourite boutique helicopter charter business, 'A.N. Other modern day pilot' and someone of Pete Barnes' calibre were sporting Nokia 3310's?
Do you really believe that the billionaire owner of the Ivy Restaurant, the Operator of Britains favourite boutique helicopter charter business, 'A.N. Other modern day pilot' and someone of Pete Barnes' calibre were sporting Nokia 3310's?
What's your point ?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
For the sake of brevity, it would absolutely be relevant, in particular to your point 'b' in post #594.
However, because the SB mentioned that a message hadn't been 'read', I suspect that because there was no mention of there being an 'unsent msg', the text trail stops after the 0755 msg's.
Oh, and yes I do have a clue which make of phone PB used.
However, because the SB mentioned that a message hadn't been 'read', I suspect that because there was no mention of there being an 'unsent msg', the text trail stops after the 0755 msg's.
Oh, and yes I do have a clue which make of phone PB used.
Oh, and yes I do have a clue which make of phone PB used.
Then, assuming that they consider it to be remotely relevant, we can all learn about it when they publish the accident investigation report.
I suggest we postpone any further discussion until then.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Dave,
You started the phones/network issue with a question in post #575, which was answered in the very next post, which if course you then disagreed with. Perhaps it is you that has the problem with its relevancy. If the AAIB find it relevant, of course will be in the final report.
I'm still puzzled as to what FASRP clarified for you earlier, and I wish he had referred to relevant posts because I cant see anywhere where someone has said what he claims was said, especially after post #584 made it quite clear how it all works.
I am happy to leave the phone/network discussion go, as table 1 in the SB tells us all we need to know for now and the only other thing that can be added is wether or not there was any further intended messaging happening after 07:55. This, we will only find out from the final report.
You started the phones/network issue with a question in post #575, which was answered in the very next post, which if course you then disagreed with. Perhaps it is you that has the problem with its relevancy. If the AAIB find it relevant, of course will be in the final report.
I'm still puzzled as to what FASRP clarified for you earlier, and I wish he had referred to relevant posts because I cant see anywhere where someone has said what he claims was said, especially after post #584 made it quite clear how it all works.
I am happy to leave the phone/network discussion go, as table 1 in the SB tells us all we need to know for now and the only other thing that can be added is wether or not there was any further intended messaging happening after 07:55. This, we will only find out from the final report.
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Quite surprised that 'phones were being used at all, I would have thought, in this day and age, CPDLC would have been the order of the day?
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parabellum.. but you can't use CPDLC to talk to your friends/customers and is CPDLC used on single-crew helicopters? I don't think CPDLC is used in busy Control zones?
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Originally Posted by HeadInTheSand
The various networks will not only have copies of all messages sent over the last up to 7 years from that persons contract/number, but also a record of all the various method of delivery, reply, delivered or read pings.
You make colossal assumptions to arrive at your "conclusions", and while *some* of the scenarios you describe _may_ match the reality of what occurred, most are fantasy and supposition, requiring an highly arbitrary set of circumstances to pertain.
[*] They may in the future, under various UK Govt and EU proposals, but that is another matter...
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
RTFM,
I believe you are confusing the information the networks are already 'archiving', with the information they may in future will be legislated to 'archive'
You seem to also be confused as to the purpose of 'the scenarios'. They are to describe how text messaging systems work, not what may or may not have happened that morning
I believe you are confusing the information the networks are already 'archiving', with the information they may in future will be legislated to 'archive'
You seem to also be confused as to the purpose of 'the scenarios'. They are to describe how text messaging systems work, not what may or may not have happened that morning
HD
Agreed.
Where I work (two crew fixed wing ops) CPDLC is used in the Upper Airspace only, and whilst there is a text option it is rarely used, CPDLC is usually only used for send/receive pre-formatted messages to/from ATC.
I don't think CPDLC is used in busy Control zones?
Where I work (two crew fixed wing ops) CPDLC is used in the Upper Airspace only, and whilst there is a text option it is rarely used, CPDLC is usually only used for send/receive pre-formatted messages to/from ATC.
Last edited by wiggy; 28th Feb 2013 at 22:05.
1) SMS or MMS; no notification of text entry, nothing happens until you press "send". The system is store-and-forward, not instant.
You can request notification of delivery, usually deep in a configuration menu on your phone. This is a network service, so the operator would know, as would you. But hardly anyone uses this.
2) BBM; is a private, IP-based instant messaging system. Messaging is online, and some features like notification of entry are available. The owner of the BES (BlackBerry Enterprise Server) will know; the owner of a BIS (BB Internet Server, the hosted version) may know depending on the terms of agreement between them and RIM.
3) Apple iMessage, WhatsApp, etc: IP-based, usually XMPP messaging. Online and feature-rich. The operator wouldn't know but the owner of the XMPP server might.
Confusion may arise because iMessage provides an integrated view of the SMS and iMessage inboxes, choosing to use iMessage to anyone whose iMessage or other XMPP IM address it knows.
You can request notification of delivery, usually deep in a configuration menu on your phone. This is a network service, so the operator would know, as would you. But hardly anyone uses this.
2) BBM; is a private, IP-based instant messaging system. Messaging is online, and some features like notification of entry are available. The owner of the BES (BlackBerry Enterprise Server) will know; the owner of a BIS (BB Internet Server, the hosted version) may know depending on the terms of agreement between them and RIM.
3) Apple iMessage, WhatsApp, etc: IP-based, usually XMPP messaging. Online and feature-rich. The operator wouldn't know but the owner of the XMPP server might.
Confusion may arise because iMessage provides an integrated view of the SMS and iMessage inboxes, choosing to use iMessage to anyone whose iMessage or other XMPP IM address it knows.
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BBC News - Vauxhall helicopter crash 'was preventable'
A fatal helicopter crash in central London might have been avoided if safety concerns raised in a 2005 report had been heeded, some experts warn.
A fatal helicopter crash in central London might have been avoided if safety concerns raised in a 2005 report had been heeded, some experts warn.