ANA 787 makes emergency landing due 'battery fire warning'
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Overheating and even exploding batteries are actually quite common. HP had to recall somewhere in the region of 170,000 Li-Ion laptop batteries in 2009 and 2010 because of 40 spontaneous fires. A couple of years before that Sony had to do the same for its batteries supplied to other laptop makers...
I'm assuming that the 787 batteries are Li-Ion type(?)
I'm assuming that the 787 batteries are Li-Ion type(?)
Stop being so touchy Spooky. My remark was for info not to criticise your knowledge. Jeeesus some people. 
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At this point, any sort of in-flight electrical problem, particularly involving batteries, on a 787 will be accompanied by the smell of smoke. There could have been smoke, but it's what passengers, crew and the press are expecting.
Event, non-event, or not even a non-event, they will all look the same at this point.
It's called a "screaming metric", I believe.
Event, non-event, or not even a non-event, they will all look the same at this point.
It's called a "screaming metric", I believe.
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Love_joy: Would you deploy the slides if all it was a bad smell and a warning light? I'm guessing it was more than that, probably significant smoke in the cabin, as rumours have it. I really hope it's not a systemic problem with Li-Ion batteries, or else Boeing may have a very expensive problem.
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How many LR/ETOPS 787 does ANA operate vs. short haul?
I suppose SH can be replaced by 737 and 767.
Any idea if they have enough 777s to fill the LH gap or whether there will be flight cancellations?
I suppose SH can be replaced by 737 and 767.
Any idea if they have enough 777s to fill the LH gap or whether there will be flight cancellations?
Last edited by BRE; 16th Jan 2013 at 09:18.
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Update from BBC website:
"Earlier reports that smoke was seen in the cockpit were inaccurate, ANA said. The pilots saw a warning on their computer screen telling them there was smoke inside one of the electrical compartments, the airline said. The source of the smoke is not yet known.
The pilots also received a warning that there was a fault in the battery system. ANA said the battery in the forward cargo hold was the same type as the one involved in a fire on another Dreamliner at a US airport last week."
"Earlier reports that smoke was seen in the cockpit were inaccurate, ANA said. The pilots saw a warning on their computer screen telling them there was smoke inside one of the electrical compartments, the airline said. The source of the smoke is not yet known.
The pilots also received a warning that there was a fault in the battery system. ANA said the battery in the forward cargo hold was the same type as the one involved in a fire on another Dreamliner at a US airport last week."
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From what I could find quickly, there's no overheat or fire warning for batteries; the only EICAS warning I could find was smoke detection for the equipment cooling systems. There are three: forward (including flight deck), aft (where the APU battery is) and "misc" for all other stuff spread over the aircraft.
In normal operation fans pump air through the forward E/E equipment and flight deck equipment and dump it overboard or into the cargo hold (for heating) by means of more fans.
Setting the forward equipment cooling system to "override" mode can be used to help clear smoke from the flight deck; in this mode, suction from an overboard venturi pulls air from the flight deck through the equipment in reverse flow, thus sucking air/smoke from the flight deck as well. I cannot tell from the pictures if in normal operation, flight deck cooling exhaust air goes into the flight deck.
Will be interesting to hear what the actual warning was that they got.
And so far it is not at all clear this one had a battery fire.
EDIT:
They probably mean the forward E/E bay. I wasn't aware that the main battery located there was also Li-Ion; I thought only the APU battery (in the aft E/E bay) was.
In normal operation fans pump air through the forward E/E equipment and flight deck equipment and dump it overboard or into the cargo hold (for heating) by means of more fans.
Setting the forward equipment cooling system to "override" mode can be used to help clear smoke from the flight deck; in this mode, suction from an overboard venturi pulls air from the flight deck through the equipment in reverse flow, thus sucking air/smoke from the flight deck as well. I cannot tell from the pictures if in normal operation, flight deck cooling exhaust air goes into the flight deck.
Will be interesting to hear what the actual warning was that they got.
And so far it is not at all clear this one had a battery fire.
EDIT:
ANA said the battery in the forward cargo hold was the same type as the one involved in a fire on another Dreamliner at a US airport last week.
Last edited by bsieker; 16th Jan 2013 at 09:33.
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but it would be very unusual to omit a BATT HOT caution, or similar measurement of unusual temperature from a modern airliner.
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Makes me wondering why all these problems never occured during the test flight phase.
Was it the 787 that was overweight during the design phase and weight had to be trimmed from where ever possible?
Are Li-ion batteries lighter than Ni-Cads - I guess they must be?
Are Li-ion batteries lighter than Ni-Cads - I guess they must be?
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Whoever used the term "over reaction" may not have keyed in on the presence of smoke in the cabin.
There still isn't any evidence that there was.
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Need to analyse the development process
The analysis of these problems needs to look at more than just the direct technical cause. Many processes must have failed or at least not worked well to get to this stage:
1. Specification - is the specifictaion of the components concerned adequate?
2. Risk/safety analysis - battery fires are obvious potential hazards what does the analysis say and what risk control measures are in place? The analysis should have included safety following failures or defects.
3. Verification - The ccomponents concerned and the risk control measures from 2. should all have been verified
4. Life and environmntal testing. The components concerned should have been tested at environmental extremes, shock, vibration and with accelerated aging.
Assuming this is another battery fire then it is suprising to me that they have happened so short into life and so relatively frequently. Safety issues for systems desigend and developed using a safety process are usually complex, multi-faceted involving multiple causes or involve obscure and difficult to predict failure mechanisms. At the moment this does not seem the case. Understanding why this got through the development process is key because if the prcoess is suspect many more areas will need to be looked at.
1. Specification - is the specifictaion of the components concerned adequate?
2. Risk/safety analysis - battery fires are obvious potential hazards what does the analysis say and what risk control measures are in place? The analysis should have included safety following failures or defects.
3. Verification - The ccomponents concerned and the risk control measures from 2. should all have been verified
4. Life and environmntal testing. The components concerned should have been tested at environmental extremes, shock, vibration and with accelerated aging.
Assuming this is another battery fire then it is suprising to me that they have happened so short into life and so relatively frequently. Safety issues for systems desigend and developed using a safety process are usually complex, multi-faceted involving multiple causes or involve obscure and difficult to predict failure mechanisms. At the moment this does not seem the case. Understanding why this got through the development process is key because if the prcoess is suspect many more areas will need to be looked at.
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Interesting evacuation video. The APU appears to have been left running from the sound on the video. That is not what I have been taught. Shut everything down before leaving.
At around 00:30 on the video, light smoke can be seen coming from underneath the fuselage where the fwd E&E would be. Equipment cooling exhaust valve?
At around 00:30 on the video, light smoke can be seen coming from underneath the fuselage where the fwd E&E would be. Equipment cooling exhaust valve?
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International ANA routes
To answer my own question, there is just four international routes that are served by the 787 (Frankfurt, Beijing, Seattle, San Jose):
Information regarding the Boeing 787-8ER route and flight operation dates?ANA SKY WEB
Out of these, only the Beijing flight is cancelled for today, whereas about 16 domestic 787 connections are cancelled. I suppose they have enought 777 to serve the other 3 international routes.
Interestingly, NH203 which took off about three hours after the emergency landing and arrived on time in FRA, was supposed to take off again as NH204 more than an hour ago. It is not cancelled and showing up as on time in flighttracker. It is hard to believe they could have flown in a 777 as a replacement.
Information regarding the Boeing 787-8ER route and flight operation dates?ANA SKY WEB
Out of these, only the Beijing flight is cancelled for today, whereas about 16 domestic 787 connections are cancelled. I suppose they have enought 777 to serve the other 3 international routes.
Interestingly, NH203 which took off about three hours after the emergency landing and arrived on time in FRA, was supposed to take off again as NH204 more than an hour ago. It is not cancelled and showing up as on time in flighttracker. It is hard to believe they could have flown in a 777 as a replacement.
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Control ICs
I would say the specs on the battery would be OK, Looking at the size it would seem to be a backup power supply for the instruments, However there are some fake control ICs for charging and current control on the market. I would hope they have been careful in the supply chain. I would be pulling out a few samples from the batch number they would have a few spare now for testing.
Some people have not been in an aircraft with unidentified smoke. I have and looked out the window 400kms from an airfield for a suitable landing area. Asked if we are OK I said yes everything is fine, but that was not in anyway what I was thinking.That day we got lucky.
Some people have not been in an aircraft with unidentified smoke. I have and looked out the window 400kms from an airfield for a suitable landing area. Asked if we are OK I said yes everything is fine, but that was not in anyway what I was thinking.That day we got lucky.
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788 fleets grounded by JAL and ANA
When one reflects on the concerns and of Airbus that were expressed on this website with the teething problems on the 388, it begs the question why the grounding of the Japanese 788 fleets and the FAA review of the aircraft has elicited such a subdued response.