'KLM also takes risks by taking as less as possible fuel' according politician

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by 737J

But what about the following

- we are going full circle here. This is why EUOPS gives the commander the discretion to weigh up the pros and cons of diverting v committing (I'm not going to post the para yet again). You need to weigh up the options. Set off to div with other 'bolt holes' en route should that double occurrence happen - diversion AND blocked div runway - or commit to dest and take a chance on a blocked runway there. This is what Captains are paid to do. By committing you probably have around 30 mins 'extra' holding fuel in most cases, but you need to consider the ?options? if, at F Reserve+300 on finals, someone evacuates on the runway in front of you. There is no easy answer!

My philosophy was always to favour the div, ideally making sure there were other options should the div become unusable.

Whichever way you cut it on the day, let's remind ourselves how many a/c have actually run out of fuel in the history of the current fuel planning criteria.

[737Jock]

Maybe I'm not being clear BOAC.

Do you agree that diverting to a single runway airport at alternate+reserve is basicly the same as committing to that airport?

If so, why are you in favour of diverting away from the single runway destination, while you have been given a known delay that will allow you to land slightly above Final reserve?

If not, what is the difference in your view?

In my view there is no statistical difference between either the destination alternate becoming blocked or the alternate becoming blocked, but both at final res + 300.

[BOAC]

You need to weigh up the options........................There is no easy answer!

- horses for courses. Your decision, not mine for you.

My view, and mine only, as expressed, is where there are 'other' options around the div airfield (eg as given) I prefer a div. Also if dest is 'busy' and div 'quiet' likewise. Otherwise, got a coin?

[737Jock]

I'm not asking you to make a decision for me. I can make my own thank you very much. I'm asking you to answer the questions, not evade them like a seasoned politician.

But I'm glad you can see that the old jar-ops landing assured only with multiple runways was a bit impractical. Any diversion to a single runway at alternate + fr would immediately violate that rule. Thats why you don't want to answer the questions?

But anyway this is why I don't mess about with minimum fuel in the London TMA when its busy, fuel gives me options in a busy environment where most airfields are single runways.
Likewise for Madrid, where diversion airfields are scarce and single runway and atc is unable to even see the sky high level where NATS are operating.

I really don't know what you are on about BOAC, but it seems you think you are very experienced. That people should praise you for that, but all you seem to be able to do is scream "I'm/You/He is the commander"
If thats all you can do with your experience then maybe you should retire from this forum, like you did from aviation in 2004. Cause it ain't helpful to anybody and it isn't pretty either. Otherwise you might just want to share your experience, so that other people don't have to make the mistakes you made to gain that experience.

[FERetd]

Summing up

737Jock Quote:- "I really don't know what you are on about BOAC, but it seems you think you are very experienced. That people should praise you for that, but all you seem to be able to do is scream "I'm/You/He is the commander"


I think that your assessment of BOAC seems quite accurate.

I thought that he sounded rather like a "FIGJAM", others might think a "THRUSH".

I don't think that I have ever met BOAC but I have surely seen him many times. Wasn't he the one drinking by himself?

In my experience, Captains that needed to work at being the Captain were not particularly good, or pleasant or respected. Fortunately, they were few and far between.

The vast majority of the Captains with whom I shared the cockpit were all round "good guys" - team leaders without the need to be the "boss".

And back on topic, the fuel required was, of course, the Captain's decision, but it was always discussed.

I have just read BOAC's post after yours and note that he knows a good therapist. Why am I not surprised?

[BOAC]

Perhaps we should now try to drag this thread back on track.

Are we now all agreed that KLM does not make crews "takes risks by taking as less as possible fuel" and that their use, and other airlines' use, of SCF is legal under EUOPS?

[Klassenoudste]

Originally Posted by 737Jock

Manage the energy with speed if you can instead of pulling speedbrake as soon as the FMS says you are too high.

Perhaps it is my limited understanding of descent planning, but what exactly is the difference between using speedbrakes or increasing speed when the result is that you regain your profile with idle thrust?

In both cases, up the speed or speedbrakes, you add drag against your VNAV profile and you essentially have 'wasted' energy have you not?

[Checkboard]

You waste MORE energy with speedbrake than with parasite drag.

[sleeper]

BOAC

Perhaps we should now try to drag this thread back on track.

Are we now all agreed that KLM does not make crews "takes
risks by taking as less as possible fuel" and that their use, and other
airlines' use, of SCF is legal under EUOPS?

Hear Hear.

[Klassenoudste]

Please elaborate. The only difference I see is flight time (=fuel saving from less time the engines are at flight idle sure)

[Magnetic Iron]

Now fuel corporate culture is the key here

i take a little extra fuel because Mr. murphy can show up any time, and many times I have not diverted because of that 400 kgs of extra fuel.


i have asked myself why should I put myself in a higher stress situation by taking less fuel, is the company going to congratulate me for taking less fuel when I have to divert to my alternate ?

Have you ever been in that situation with a airport closed down and you are holding and they dont know when it will open, with a lot of traffic in front of you, you are about to divert to your alternate, what are you thinking ?

when the weather could go bad in the tempo situation

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best

Common sense

[Giolla]

The DEGAS report is a general assessment of some practices showing up along the recent years where the use of statistics and numbers play a high end role.

PIA for the pilots and valuable numbers for the beancounters, solid part of any present industry.
Make stupid mistakes and you will lose a ship (Concordia) or plane (Air France) plus human lives.
Concordia showed us the Titanic disaster all over again. The wrong guy in the pilot station.
In the Airline industry such behavior is mainly executed by the BoD and relevant staff.

The DEGAS report points on the present culture within the circles of International Airliners. The very reason of the existence of PPRuNe.