Stowaway body found at LHR
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Newswatcher
The pathologist did say 10,000 feet (not metres). That's consistent with the excerpt you quote: "Pathologist ..... told the court that the boys would have died minutes after take-off as oxygen levels plummeted."
Interesting discussion.
The pathologist did say 10,000 feet (not metres). That's consistent with the excerpt you quote: "Pathologist ..... told the court that the boys would have died minutes after take-off as oxygen levels plummeted."
Interesting discussion.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Apr 2002 at 12:55.
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Very interesting FL... I'm somewhat reluctant to criticise a presumably highly-qualified member of a profession which isn't mine, but I do find his assertion that they were dead by 10,000'... strange at best, and contrary to everything I've been taught about how the human body reacts to pressure changes.
The language is strange also... 'oxygen levels plummeted' is the kind of phrase I would associate with the tabloid press. Oxygen levels are the same to at least the top of the stratosphere... what changes is the oxygen partial pressure. Sloppy language from a scientist.
R1
The language is strange also... 'oxygen levels plummeted' is the kind of phrase I would associate with the tabloid press. Oxygen levels are the same to at least the top of the stratosphere... what changes is the oxygen partial pressure. Sloppy language from a scientist.
R1
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In fairness to the pathologist (whether his opinion as to the cause of death is correct or not) I don't think he used the description "plummeted" - I think that is a journo's interpretation of what he said!
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Apr 2002 at 14:41.
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Did he say it or not?
In the context of the report I posted, certain of the pathologist's comments were in quotes, and therefore hopefully unadulterated. The word "plummeted" was definitely not in quotes, and therefore the risk of fabrication is entirely possible!
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Can I try to get back to the main point. It doesn't really matter for the purpose of this discussion , what precise words the pathologist used.
His propositions were:
(1) The notion that stowaways in wheel-wells are frozen to death is a popular misconception; they die of hypoxia long before they freeze.
(2) Death is caused by the rate at which the aircraft reaches high altitude.
ie It's the speed of change which kills. The body can adjust to high altitude provided the change is gradual. The illustration he used was: "It was like shooting up from sea level to more than the height of Everest in just a few minutes."
The accuracy or otherwise of his assertions didn't matter for the purpose of the issues which had to be decided at the Inquest. I'm not qualified to comment upon his propositions, but I'm interested in the views of those who are.
His propositions were:
(1) The notion that stowaways in wheel-wells are frozen to death is a popular misconception; they die of hypoxia long before they freeze.
(2) Death is caused by the rate at which the aircraft reaches high altitude.
ie It's the speed of change which kills. The body can adjust to high altitude provided the change is gradual. The illustration he used was: "It was like shooting up from sea level to more than the height of Everest in just a few minutes."
The accuracy or otherwise of his assertions didn't matter for the purpose of the issues which had to be decided at the Inquest. I'm not qualified to comment upon his propositions, but I'm interested in the views of those who are.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Apr 2002 at 15:54.
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I think some people are missing the point here.
The pathologist surely didn't mean to say that it was the actual rate of climb that caused the stowaways to die. Rather, he was referring to the fact that, although the human body can survive at high altitudes, it can only do this if it is allowed to acclimatise to the lower oxygen levels. Being taken up to that altitude at any rate achieved by an aircraft, be it military or civilian, does not allow the body to acclimatise and therefore the victim will suffocate (hypoxia) probably before freezing to death (hypothermia).
I understand that climbers who try to climb Everest allow themselves a week at the higher camp to become fully acclimatised before they attempt the summit.
The pathologist surely didn't mean to say that it was the actual rate of climb that caused the stowaways to die. Rather, he was referring to the fact that, although the human body can survive at high altitudes, it can only do this if it is allowed to acclimatise to the lower oxygen levels. Being taken up to that altitude at any rate achieved by an aircraft, be it military or civilian, does not allow the body to acclimatise and therefore the victim will suffocate (hypoxia) probably before freezing to death (hypothermia).
I understand that climbers who try to climb Everest allow themselves a week at the higher camp to become fully acclimatised before they attempt the summit.
WRT wheel well temps, I think you will find most fusible plugs melt between 165 and 190 degrees C depending on rating. If temps did reach 2-300 degs, then all the tyres would deflate!
My type has the bleed duct running through the wells. Although it is double skinned, bleed air typically reaches 300 degs, there must be some heating from this.
My type has the bleed duct running through the wells. Although it is double skinned, bleed air typically reaches 300 degs, there must be some heating from this.
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The survivor of the BA Delhi - London flight is Pardeep Saini, who lives in Ealing. He is quite severely brain-damaged, although his uncle says his family can understand what he is trying to say. He apparently has no recollection of the flight.
When the Home Office tried to deport him a campaign was begun to allow him to remain in the UK on the grounds that if a condemned man could be reprieved when the trapdoor failed to open three times, then Pardeep Saini should be extended the same courtesy.
The campaign was bolstered by a letter of support from the captain of the BA flight on which Saini illegally entered Britain.
The body of Pardeep's brother fell into the grounds of what was in 1996 a gasworks in Manor Road, Kew - 5m 27L. The body of a later stowaway landed within 100 yards of where he fell, which is now a Sainsbury's car park.
When the Home Office tried to deport him a campaign was begun to allow him to remain in the UK on the grounds that if a condemned man could be reprieved when the trapdoor failed to open three times, then Pardeep Saini should be extended the same courtesy.
The campaign was bolstered by a letter of support from the captain of the BA flight on which Saini illegally entered Britain.
The body of Pardeep's brother fell into the grounds of what was in 1996 a gasworks in Manor Road, Kew - 5m 27L. The body of a later stowaway landed within 100 yards of where he fell, which is now a Sainsbury's car park.
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I think you are all missing the point here.
If the pathologist said rate then that's what he means. A rapid reduction in air pressure forces nitrogen into the blood. It's called the bends and divers have been aware of the problem for years.
If a case of the bends is not treated fairly rapidly then death can be the result.
A rapid decompression will not usually result in the bends because the greatest change in pressure occurs in the first 6-8000ft, plus oxygen is administered and pressure is normalised as quickly as possible. (assuming you follow the SOP)
That I suspect is why the word rate was used.
If the pathologist said rate then that's what he means. A rapid reduction in air pressure forces nitrogen into the blood. It's called the bends and divers have been aware of the problem for years.
If a case of the bends is not treated fairly rapidly then death can be the result.
A rapid decompression will not usually result in the bends because the greatest change in pressure occurs in the first 6-8000ft, plus oxygen is administered and pressure is normalised as quickly as possible. (assuming you follow the SOP)
That I suspect is why the word rate was used.
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These incidents are sad but I don't see why trying to understand
the cause of death is disrespectful.
"A rapid reduction in air pressure forces nitrogen into the blood. It's
called the bends"
I don't think so. It is the very great water pressure at depth which
causes the nitrogen to dissolve. Decompression sickness occurs when
that dissolved nitrogen expands too rapidly due to reducing pressure
during ascent. Though both are caused by the effects of pressure,
decompression sickness and high altitude sickness are quite distinct.
Flying lawyer, I don't have the background to directly dispute the
propositions you list,
(1) "The notion that stowaways in wheel-wells are frozen to death is a
popular misconception; they die of hypoxia long before they freeze."
(2) "Death is caused by the rate at which the aircraft reaches high
altitude. ie It's the speed of change which kills. The body can
adjust to high altitude provided the change is gradual."
But there is certainly evidence to contradict these assertions as
general statements. Of course the pathologist would know if
the two particular deaths he examined were caused by hypoxia.
As to proposition (1), the Tahitian stowaway discussed below
suffered from hypoxia but did not die from it. However, his body
temperature fell 6 degrees fahrenheit below what is usually fatal.
As to assertion (2), there are several rapid body adaptations to
high altitude that can be effective against hypoxia. It is true
that other adaptations require a gradual acclimatization but the
relatively large number of wheel well stowaways who do not die of
hypoxia provides an inarguable counterexample to assertion (2)
as a generality.
An analogy with mountain climbers has been made but it is not
appropriate. Mountain-climbing places enormous aerobic demands on the
climber. It is very different from a state of near hibernation. The
most important reason that high altitude climbers ascend gradually
is to avoid pulmonary and cerebral edemas.
There is a good online reference for high altitude illnesses:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/980415ap/harris.html
Reference 8 of this article was inspired by FAA technical report
DOT/FAA/AM-96/25. It concerns eleven wheel well stowaways
(through 1993) of which five survived. I couldn't find the report
online but the abstract is here:
http://www.faa.gov/aar/abstract.htm
In 1993 (IIRC) a man (possibly Russian) fell from the wheel well of a
plane landing at CDG. I remember reading that contact with the ground
was given as the cause of death. In particular, the coroner ruled out
hypoxia. This event was widely reported at the time because the body
was discovered by a woman investigating why her phone line went dead
during a conversation. Can't find anything about this online but I'm
pretty sure I clipped a report from Le Point way back when.
In 2000 a Romanian stowed away in the wheel well of a German 737. I
forget the airline. His presence prevented retraction of the landing
gear. The pilot returned but by the time he was able to land - about
20 minutes - the man was already suffering from hypothermia.
Also in 2000 there was a Tahitian who stowed away in the wheel well
of an Air France 747. When he was pulled out in LAX his inner body
temperature was 79 degrees Fahrenheit. Here's part of the report from
AP. I didn't record the URL but if you Google Tahiti +stowaway
+747 several links come up.
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A nearly frozen stowaway survived subzero
temperatures and little oxygen at 38,000 feet inside the wheel well
of a jumbo jet on an eight-hour flight.
The 6-foot, 180-pound man, who remains unidentified, was responding
to treatment and communicating with doctors Friday, but he was
covered with gear oil and moaning when paramedics arrived at Los
Angeles International Airport Thursday night.
His core body temperature was 79 degrees when he arrived at the
UCLA Medical Center for treatment of hypothermia and dehydration,
hospital spokesman David Langness said.
With the jet traveling 600 mph at 38,000 feet, the air temperature
would have been about 50 degrees below zero, "and who knows with the
wind chill," Langness said.
"His clothes were shredded from the wind, and he was covered with
grease," he said. "It is a remarkable story. We don't know of any other
person whose body temperature dropped this low who has survived."
Anything below 85 degrees is usually fatal, Langness said.
The man was moved Friday afternoon from the intensive care unit to a
hospital ward floor, Langness said.
The man is able to write notes in French and English but responds
indirectly when asked about his identity, Langness said. He cannot
speak, and doctors are still testing his brain and organ functions.
Air France Flight 71 from Papeete, French Polynesia, arrived in Los
Angeles at 7:48 p.m. At the terminal gate, a maintenance worker
spotted a blanket hanging from a wheel well on the Boeing 747-400
and notified authorities when he found the man.
the cause of death is disrespectful.
"A rapid reduction in air pressure forces nitrogen into the blood. It's
called the bends"
I don't think so. It is the very great water pressure at depth which
causes the nitrogen to dissolve. Decompression sickness occurs when
that dissolved nitrogen expands too rapidly due to reducing pressure
during ascent. Though both are caused by the effects of pressure,
decompression sickness and high altitude sickness are quite distinct.
Flying lawyer, I don't have the background to directly dispute the
propositions you list,
(1) "The notion that stowaways in wheel-wells are frozen to death is a
popular misconception; they die of hypoxia long before they freeze."
(2) "Death is caused by the rate at which the aircraft reaches high
altitude. ie It's the speed of change which kills. The body can
adjust to high altitude provided the change is gradual."
But there is certainly evidence to contradict these assertions as
general statements. Of course the pathologist would know if
the two particular deaths he examined were caused by hypoxia.
As to proposition (1), the Tahitian stowaway discussed below
suffered from hypoxia but did not die from it. However, his body
temperature fell 6 degrees fahrenheit below what is usually fatal.
As to assertion (2), there are several rapid body adaptations to
high altitude that can be effective against hypoxia. It is true
that other adaptations require a gradual acclimatization but the
relatively large number of wheel well stowaways who do not die of
hypoxia provides an inarguable counterexample to assertion (2)
as a generality.
An analogy with mountain climbers has been made but it is not
appropriate. Mountain-climbing places enormous aerobic demands on the
climber. It is very different from a state of near hibernation. The
most important reason that high altitude climbers ascend gradually
is to avoid pulmonary and cerebral edemas.
There is a good online reference for high altitude illnesses:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/980415ap/harris.html
Reference 8 of this article was inspired by FAA technical report
DOT/FAA/AM-96/25. It concerns eleven wheel well stowaways
(through 1993) of which five survived. I couldn't find the report
online but the abstract is here:
http://www.faa.gov/aar/abstract.htm
In 1993 (IIRC) a man (possibly Russian) fell from the wheel well of a
plane landing at CDG. I remember reading that contact with the ground
was given as the cause of death. In particular, the coroner ruled out
hypoxia. This event was widely reported at the time because the body
was discovered by a woman investigating why her phone line went dead
during a conversation. Can't find anything about this online but I'm
pretty sure I clipped a report from Le Point way back when.
In 2000 a Romanian stowed away in the wheel well of a German 737. I
forget the airline. His presence prevented retraction of the landing
gear. The pilot returned but by the time he was able to land - about
20 minutes - the man was already suffering from hypothermia.
Also in 2000 there was a Tahitian who stowed away in the wheel well
of an Air France 747. When he was pulled out in LAX his inner body
temperature was 79 degrees Fahrenheit. Here's part of the report from
AP. I didn't record the URL but if you Google Tahiti +stowaway
+747 several links come up.
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A nearly frozen stowaway survived subzero
temperatures and little oxygen at 38,000 feet inside the wheel well
of a jumbo jet on an eight-hour flight.
The 6-foot, 180-pound man, who remains unidentified, was responding
to treatment and communicating with doctors Friday, but he was
covered with gear oil and moaning when paramedics arrived at Los
Angeles International Airport Thursday night.
His core body temperature was 79 degrees when he arrived at the
UCLA Medical Center for treatment of hypothermia and dehydration,
hospital spokesman David Langness said.
With the jet traveling 600 mph at 38,000 feet, the air temperature
would have been about 50 degrees below zero, "and who knows with the
wind chill," Langness said.
"His clothes were shredded from the wind, and he was covered with
grease," he said. "It is a remarkable story. We don't know of any other
person whose body temperature dropped this low who has survived."
Anything below 85 degrees is usually fatal, Langness said.
The man was moved Friday afternoon from the intensive care unit to a
hospital ward floor, Langness said.
The man is able to write notes in French and English but responds
indirectly when asked about his identity, Langness said. He cannot
speak, and doctors are still testing his brain and organ functions.
Air France Flight 71 from Papeete, French Polynesia, arrived in Los
Angeles at 7:48 p.m. At the terminal gate, a maintenance worker
spotted a blanket hanging from a wheel well on the Boeing 747-400
and notified authorities when he found the man.
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I think that you will find that any high temps from the tires are soon gone after climb out - if you look at the landing gear after a long sector you will usually find it covered in ice.
Most large transport aircraft have the APU bleed duct running through the wheel bay - if the APU is running AND supplying pneumatics it will supply some heat to possibly keep anyone in the bay from freezing - although it will not help about the lack of oxygen.
Most large transport aircraft have the APU bleed duct running through the wheel bay - if the APU is running AND supplying pneumatics it will supply some heat to possibly keep anyone in the bay from freezing - although it will not help about the lack of oxygen.
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To Flying Lawyer
Did you used to be on the JY Prog? I only ask because I remember you from the media years back, but can't quite remember where.
I'll be up all night thinking where I know you from now.
I'll be up all night thinking where I know you from now.
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All sounds a bit academic really. Body temperature at boiling point/40 below freezing/No oxygen/rapid loss of pressure. Any of these would kill. This guy was on to a loser from the start and should have tried harder in science at school. A very silly boy.
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With regards to landing gear bay temperatures. Large aircraft have fire wire in the ceiling of the main gear bays. As the aircraft leaves the ground, the wheel brakes automatically apply in order to reduce the hydraulic load during retraction. (The wheels are big, heavy gyros at this point). This will contribute to the brake temperature, but the load is obviously light compared to normal landing braking. However, as has been pointed out, fast turn rounds on aircraft that do not have brake fans combined with fast taxiing/heavy braking can contribute to an accumulated rise in take off temperatures.
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I find it hard to understand the desperation that drives these poor people to certain deaths, but what I find more worrying is the fact they can access the inner workings of an aircraft.
I know from experience that the security at certain African airports is open to the highest bidder if it exists at all, and as a lot of African people are of religions that tend to be slightly fanatical, and with the current state of global politics. Then the security of the aircraft should be of more interest than the cause of demise of some poor desperate person.
I will probably be condemed as a racist bigot, but I am only saying what a LOT of people must think
I know from experience that the security at certain African airports is open to the highest bidder if it exists at all, and as a lot of African people are of religions that tend to be slightly fanatical, and with the current state of global politics. Then the security of the aircraft should be of more interest than the cause of demise of some poor desperate person.
I will probably be condemed as a racist bigot, but I am only saying what a LOT of people must think
Last edited by PA38; 26th Apr 2002 at 11:57.
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Wino said :
But do they read low temperatures accurately? (Are frozen brakes a hazard on a/c?)
On the A300 and the A320 both of which had wheel brake temp guages I don't ever recall seeing below about 30 degrees C in flight usually up around 50.